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Duracool for AC re-charge

jmoffo on Fri March 23, 2007 8:21 AM User is offline

Year: 1976
Make: Cadillac
Model: DeVille
Engine Size: 500 cu i
Refrigerant Type: r-12

Has anyone used Duracool to REPLACE their Freon (r12)? I am NOT topping off. I have lost the charge completely as the car sat idle in someone's barn in New Hampshire for three years without ever using the ac. I do NOT want to convert to hc-134a.

Any info would be great! I have heard some garbage about Freeze-12 ... but on the contrary have heard that another refrigerant, HC-12a, works great, but I know it can be dangerous because it is flammable.

The car is a 1976 Cadillac Deville with 50,000 original miles in EXCELLENT condition. Never driven in the snow or rain!!! Everything else works as though she were just drvien from the showroom. HELP as it will be getting warm in New Jersey soon.



Edited: Fri March 23, 2007 at 8:21 AM by jmoffo

NickD on Fri March 23, 2007 9:12 AM User is offline

I quote from the EPA/

"What is the legal status of hydrocarbon refrigerants such as HC-12a® and DURACOOL®?

It has been illegal since July 13, 1995 to replace CFC-12 with the HC-12a® formulation that was submitted for SNAP review in any refrigeration or A/C application other than industrial process refrigeration. The same prohibition for OZ-12® took effect on April 18, 1994. Because DURACOOL 12a® has the same chemical composition as the HC-12a® formulation that was submitted for SNAP review (i.e., Hydrocarbon Blend B), DURACOOL 12a® is also subject to the same restrictions."

But if you want to break the law and use it anyway, the first problem you will run into is that the operating pressures will be too low, so you have to add some air to bring it up. The second problem is that Duracool is a blend of butane and propane, if the lighter of the two should leak out, and it will, the pressures will skyrocket and you will seize your compressor causing extensive system damage. Your choice.

Believe you have the 472, only the Eldorado used the 500, unfortunately Caddy between 66 and 76 went from a cast iron like evaporator, radiator, and a condenser to a tin foil type that rot away, and that could be your problem, replacement is the only key, the A6 is still a hunk of iron with a good seal, but 31 years is still 31 years. Do you have any charge left at all? If air got into the system with moisture, a lot of internal damage can be done.

Can practically fill the system with R-12 for about the same price it costs to fill the tank after they system has been thoroughly inspected, this has not been an easy vehicle to retrofit to R-134a either.

May also want to think about changing the seals in your TH400, my six year younger TH400 with only 42K on it didn't last very long on a trip, that rubber gets old and dries out. Learned very quickly an AT is worthless unless it can hold fluid. Also putting on a new fuel pump, probably more rotten rubber in there, although now it's working okay. But did replace all the fuel and brake lines, those were GM rust years.

Nice car otherwise, they don't make them quite as big anymore.

jmoffo on Fri March 23, 2007 10:22 AM User is offline

So...Duracool is not an option....how about AUTOFROST?

I suspect I am going to eventually get the r-12 back in once it is tested for leaks, etc. I also suspect you are against any products that we call "stop leak" I heard they can be a nightmare.


Trust me, it is a 500 cu in. (8.2L). 1976 was the last year Cadillac used it. Same engine as the Eldorado! I believe 74, 75, and 76 all shared the 500 cu in. "Sweetie" as I call her will be out of the garage soon for shows..so I want this resolved before the dead of summer!

iceman2555 on Fri March 23, 2007 10:55 AM User is offlineView users profile

If your desire is not to use 134a..why not have it recharged with R12. Looking for a simple 'drop in refrigerant' is not the way to go...in fact there is no such thing as a 'drop in'replacement for 12...all different refrigerants require certain retro fit procedures.
AUTOFROST is a blended refrigerant containing R22 (bad stuff for R12 system).
If retro fitting is what you are desiring, go with 134a and follow procedures. Although some of the older Caddies do exhibit some interesting situations with 134a and climate control A/C.
Best bet...R12....second best bet....134a (properly retro fitted)...still looking for options....third and final......a blended refrigerant using 134a as a base. Stay away from blends using R22 as a blend....and stay away from the HC's....!!
Good luck....


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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

NickD on Fri March 23, 2007 11:19 AM User is offline

Blends are two or more refrigerants mixed together to reach so-called ideal pressures that do not form a chemical bond where one refrigerant is always lighter than the other and are not only difficult to charge with as you have to constantly shake the can, but the lighter leaks out first causing major system problems.

Some blends are EPA approved, not because they work well or are good for your system, but because they don't poke holes in the ozone layer, no other reason.

You can do whatever you want to your car, no skin off my back, even add a gallon of stop leak if that is your desire, you asked for advice, giving it with the reasons and the pitfalls you will run into. Thousands like you came to this board, wishing they haven't used some of these products, we have a defunct FTC that wants you to hire an attorney and fight your own battles, so don't look to the government for protection.

I don't see any reason to play with different refrigerants, you inspect the system, fix or replace it, and charge with a homogeneous refrigerant. Unfortunately the only two MVAC homogeneous refrigerants there are, are R-12 and R-134a. If you know of another, please advise. R-134a requires several compatibility changes you must address, read the FAQ section on this.

jmoffo on Fri March 23, 2007 11:53 AM User is offline

I originally intended on having the system repaired and filling with r-12. Some knucklehead suggested I look into the replacements first. Thank God, I have not done anything to it as of yet. I am beginning my research phase. Luckily, people here have already helped me immensely.


I agree about the EPA reg's....so I am going to stick with the r-12 once the leak is found and repaired.

TRB on Fri March 23, 2007 11:59 AM User is offlineView users profile

Important thing when dealing with all legal refrigerants is to have the system repaired so you do not lose refrigerant. Refrigerant is not something that needs to be refilled or replaced. As long as it has not leaked out of the system. So even though refrigerant cost a little. If the system is sealed its a one time shot. People go though 12 packs all day long only to have refill a little later. R12 is not a costly product when you look at it in relative terms.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

jmoffo on Fri March 23, 2007 12:28 PM User is offline

Tim,

Any suggestions where to first look for the leak in my system...I know I am supposed to check for oil that may have leaked out, but I see nothing...anywhere. I am suspecting old o-rings...but which should be checked first.

Maybe a dye would be a good place to start.

TRB on Fri March 23, 2007 12:32 PM User is offlineView users profile

Not really GM did a fair job back then. Compressor shaft seal would be a good place to check. If it is a small leak you may need a electronic leak detector or maybe a UV dye kit to find the leak.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

buster3465 on Tue March 27, 2007 12:43 PM User is offline

http://www.vasa.org.au/images/movies/hc_demo.mov
See what occurs when hydrocarbons are used as refrigerants... OOPPPSSSS

TRB on Tue March 27, 2007 1:27 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: buster3465
http://www.vasa.org.au/images/movies/hc_demo.mov

See what occurs when hydrocarbons are used as refrigerants... OOPPPSSSS


No way did that ever happen. It was staged for the media. I have been told may times this stuff is safe to use in my vehicle. Heck I have seen this stuff posted on the Internet as the safest refrigerant to date.

Figured I would just make these claims before the HC proponents chime in. I have read about this demonstration in the past. But that is the first time I have seen the video. What was all the orange stuff? Must have been the dye used to check for leaks.


http://www.vasa.org.au/images/movies/hc_demo.mov

That link may have been pulled so here is another of the same video. HC Demonstration

-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com


Edited: Fri April 13, 2007 at 11:51 AM by TRB

NickD on Tue March 27, 2007 2:12 PM User is offline

I definitely heard Gore say in his Academy Award winning document that the hole in the ozone layer has been repaired. A far cry from the hundred year estimate the EPA no longer posted on the web. And we would be all dead by then due to skin cancer. now let's concentrate on fixing global warming due to only man made CO2.

If the repair was that quick and easy, only 13 years after R-12 has been banned for new cars and 12 years for many trucks, must have not been a very serious issue to start with, still lots of R-12 vehicles on the road and you still can buy it with a second mortgage on your home, all taxes.

Another typical example of the EPA, fix a theoretical problem and create a huge mess in the process, who even thought about using HC's before the banning of R-12? R-12 could have been slowly phased out like leaded gas, now leaded gas was a real problem, makes people crazy, power hungry, and want to run for public office and even win. But the phase out didn't skyrocket the price of leaded gas and was done over a twenty year period.

With people electing to use HC's in their cars, I elected to do the opposite, use R-12 in my gas grill. Doesn't burn very well, but like my steaks rare anyway.

GlennT on Tue April 03, 2007 2:07 PM User is offline

This really made my afternoon.
just watching this guy use a match as the ignition source in a car filled with HC's is priceless, what the heck was going through his mind? I am a bit confused, was this supposed to be a demo of what not to do with HC's or perhaps this guys application for the darwin awards.

FOMOCO on Tue April 03, 2007 3:09 PM User is offline

It was done at a University in Australia. A personal injury lawsuit resulted from it.

Take a look at this document Text scroll down to the third page, and read headings:

"14 July 2004" which is a short excerpt from the lawsuit describing actions on July 12 of 2001.

and read right below it,

"Flashback to 12 July 2001" which is the brilliant comment from the hydrocarbon guy, after the explosion.

The orange in the video is FLAME! Note that the video has been chopped up, there are chunks of time missing after the explosion.

TRB on Tue April 03, 2007 3:51 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: FOMOCO
The orange in the video is FLAME! Note that the video has been chopped up, there are chunks of time missing after the explosion.

I know I was being sarcastic.

-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com


Edited: Tue April 03, 2007 at 9:54 PM by TRB

TRB on Fri April 13, 2007 11:49 AM User is offlineView users profile

Anyone else not getting the link to the little fire they had in their experiment? Guess they decided to pull the movie as it was to popular and and may have shown the real concerns with these products.

But it is still on the internet in other places.
HC demonstration.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

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