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Installing a NOS system into my car...have a few ??'s Pages: 12Last

Dubbinchris on Mon August 17, 2009 10:46 PM User is offline

Year: 1988
Make: VW
Model: Fox
Engine Size: 1.8
Refrigerant Type: 134a
Country of Origin: United States

Hello, this is my first post to these forums. I've been reading lots of threds to hopefully get the info I needed for my project but can't quite seem to track down what I'm looking for. I was trying to avoid asking easily found questions, but gave in and signed up for an account.

Here is what I have. I have a 1988 VW Fox wagon. A/C was optional in these cars and mine did not come with it. I'm sure everyone remembers when you could have the dealer install A/C for you in many cars that didn't come factory with it. The dealership would order a kit from VW or whatever the make of the car was and their mechanics would put it in. Last summer I tracked down such a kit made specifically for my car. It's been on a shelf for quite a few years but it's completely new. All the hoses still have their caps on the ends, the condensor is new, the evap is new, the drier is new and so is the compressor. I even started to unscrew a cap on the compressor and heard a hiss. I quickly tightened it knowing that this was a good sign. The nitrogen hasn't leaked out in all these years.

I'm currently in the process of installing it into my car. Of course this kit was designed to run on R12, but I'm obviously going to use 134a. Since everything is brand new I don't have to worry about the old R12 oil right? One question I have is about the compressor. Would it have come with oil in it already? If so would I need to drain that out and put different oil in it? If so how much and what type? Other than the fittings what else would I need to do to make it ready for 134? I do have a 134 conversion "kit" which is of course a bag of the viton o-rings. I plan to assemble it with these O rings while I install it. I understand the basics of A/C but don't know many details. I'm willing to do as much as needed to do this the right way. I know that if I take the time and don't take any short cuts this system will prob work for a while to come.

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can provide. I'm sure I'll be buying a few things from AMA to help keep the forums going...it will prob be the least I can do.

Cussboy on Mon August 17, 2009 10:52 PM User is offline

I think you should drain out the oil (if any) from the compressor and measure it. If no oil present, add correct amount of R134a oil. If it had R-12 mineral oil in it, add maybe 6 ounces of R134a oil, work the compressor several turns, then drain the oil. Then do that again and drain again. Then add back the correct amount of R134a oil.

Dubbinchris on Mon August 17, 2009 11:01 PM User is offline

Ok cool...good start. Wouldn't there be some residual R12 oil left on the surfaces of the inside of the pump? How would I get that out if so? Heck I don't even know how to drain the pump. I installed it into the car before I thought about the oil. It's not too hard to pull back out. Would posting the numbers from the side of the box help anyone here. I know it's a denso pump.


Edit: I guess I didn't thoroughly read what you wrote at first. Adding 134 oil working it around then draining it many times over should get out the r12oil? Is there a more sure fire way? How thorough does this process need to be I.E. how much of the r12 stuff does it take to mess things up? I'm willing to do what ever it takes to get every drop of the old r12 out of there.

I've read some about using mineral spirits and other ways to clean out AC systems. Is this used mostly for systems that have become contaminated with pump interenals due to wear?

Like I said at first. I'm willing to take the time to make sure this systems is as clean and moisture free as possible so I don't have to mess with it for a while.

Edited: Mon August 17, 2009 at 11:04 PM by Dubbinchris

knightgang on Mon August 17, 2009 11:28 PM User is offline

Just working through the proper 134 oil will remove enough of the r12 oil that any residual that might be left on components in the pump will be so negligible that it will not make a difference. That process is as efficient as a way as is possible/practical.

Dubbinchris on Mon August 17, 2009 11:39 PM User is offline

Ok cool, thanks!

Now another question. What about all these lines that have been sitting around for years. They look brand new and have caps on them...but the caps aren't as substantial as the ones on the compressor. Should I flush these out with something before assembly or putting the normal vacuum on tbe whole system will cover it?

What exactly will be the proper oil for my new compressor? Is it simply 123a oil or is it more compressor dependant? Would the pump part number help?

Prospeeder on Tue August 18, 2009 12:12 AM User is offlineView users profile

I would just use it. Who knows how long those A/C hoses from the parts stores have been sitting on the shelf. I work at napa, and i see some reaaaaaalllly dusty parts....I woudlnt worry about all that, put it together, vacuum it and charge it.

-------------------------
1990 Pontiac Turbo Grand Prix
1990 Pontiac 6000 LE V6
Both have R12 A/C

Dubbinchris on Tue August 18, 2009 12:34 AM User is offline

I wasn't so much concerned about the condition of the hose per se and they seem pretty good to me. I'm more wondering if there might be something inside of them that would need flushed out.

Also can someone tell me a little bit about the 134 oil I would need to get? I did read a recent write up about two different kinds of PAG oil that was interesting. Water really dissolved into one while water didn't dissolve as much into the other. This site has a lot of good info, it's just sometimes tough to decipher for a noob like me.

Thanks again,

Chris

bohica2xo on Tue August 18, 2009 1:52 AM User is offline

This is a no-brainer. Fill the system with R12.

It will be a dog if you try to convert it, and it does not hold a lot of refrigerant.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

Dubbinchris on Tue August 18, 2009 2:21 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
This is a no-brainer. Fill the system with R12.



It will be a dog if you try to convert it, and it does not hold a lot of refrigerant.



B.

Ha ha....ship me some R12 and I'll be set.

Dubbinchris on Tue August 18, 2009 4:56 AM User is offline

I'm sure you guys will cringe at this idea, but do these look halfway decent? Guess you missed this at the top of each page! Auction links are prohibited on this forum. Moderator Edit

I've seen some really cheap stuff out there, like $50 for the manifold and the vac pump that run off your compressor. Harbor freight also sells this stuff and I'm sure it's complete junk. I'm sure I will do some A/C work in the future but not much so it's tough to justify spending a ton on a really nice manifold and vac. Do you think the link I posted get the job done?



Edited: Tue August 18, 2009 at 9:58 AM by Automotive Air Conditioning Information Moderator

Dougflas on Tue August 18, 2009 5:32 AM User is offline

If you go with R134, buy a new drier. The older r12 driers did not contain the proper desicant and will cause problems you don't want to experience.

Dubbinchris on Tue August 18, 2009 6:33 AM User is offline

I know that typically when changing from r12 to 134a you need to buy a new drier, but I always thought it was b/c you couldn't get all the old oil out of the old drier. If I buy a new drier for my car, although brand new it will still be designed for the r12 right? The one I'm putting in has never been used, or doesn't that make a difference since it was technically made a while ago? I wonder even if I order a new one from somewhere if it won't have been just sitting on their shelf for years???

Thanks,

Chris

Edited: Tue August 18, 2009 at 6:39 AM by Dubbinchris

mk378 on Tue August 18, 2009 8:23 AM User is offline

The air-driven vacuum pumps are not suitable, they don't develop a full vacuum and the air left behind will impair performance. Don't use the NOS drier, it may be wet already from any slight leakage in the caps while it was sitting around and also you don't know if it's R-134a compatible. New driers are OK for either R-12 or R-134a. Use ester based (POE) oil and you can use either refrigerant without changing the oil. I think POE oil only comes in 100 viscosity, further simplifying the choice. If you used PAG oil you would need to remove every trace of it from all parts before reverting to R-12; R-12 reacts with PAG and forms a sludge. For about $20 you can take the EPA 609 test online and be certified to buy R-12 legally. There are lots of places selling it. Always pressure test a R-12 system with some other gas first to be reasonably sure there are no leaks before charging the R-12.

Edited: Tue August 18, 2009 at 8:27 AM by mk378

Cussboy on Tue August 18, 2009 9:14 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: Dougflas
If you go with R134, buy a new drier. The older r12 driers did not contain the proper desicant and will cause problems you don't want to experience.

Great post, didn't think of that.

Dubbinchris on Tue August 18, 2009 4:09 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: mk378
The air-driven vacuum pumps are not suitable, they don't develop a full vacuum and the air left behind will impair performance. Don't use the NOS drier, it may be wet already from any slight leakage in the caps while it was sitting around and also you don't know if it's R-134a compatible. New driers are OK for either R-12 or R-134a. Use ester based (POE) oil and you can use either refrigerant without changing the oil. I think POE oil only comes in 100 viscosity, further simplifying the choice. If you used PAG oil you would need to remove every trace of it from all parts before reverting to R-12; R-12 reacts with PAG and forms a sludge. For about $20 you can take the EPA 609 test online and be certified to buy R-12 legally. There are lots of places selling it. Always pressure test a R-12 system with some other gas first to be reasonably sure there are no leaks before charging the R-12.

Great post man, thank you. I'll go ahead an purchase a new drier, I think they are only about $65 for this car.

About those air driven pumps, I figured they were junk. Also I just found out that my neighbor has a pretty nice HVAC vacuum pump. He does some work in residental HVAC and doesn't seem to know much about auto. Now I just need to pick up a proper manifold. Would this pump that's used for residental have different fittings? Can I get an adapter for this pump to allow it to work on a 134 or r12 compatable manifold? Maybe I can just get adapters and borrow his manifold? It says it's for R22 and something else that I can't remember. Can I purchase the poe oil here on this site? What really is the difference between the poe and pag oils? Advantages or disadvantages for either?

Thanks again for all the informative answers.

Also I may just go ahead and read that 609 manual tonight.

bohica2xo on Tue August 18, 2009 4:25 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: Dubbinchris
Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
This is a no-brainer. Fill the system with R12.







It will be a dog if you try to convert it, and it does not hold a lot of refrigerant.







B.



Ha ha....ship me some R12 and I'll be set.


Ha Ha yourself. Go ahead and put 134a in it. Then I can laugh at the long threads about how poorly it cools, short compressor life etc.

R12 is readily available. I worked on those systems when they were new - they were weak with R12, and converting one will be awful. Upgrading the system components to handle 134a will cost far more than the little bit of R12 it will take to fill the system.

B.


-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

Dubbinchris on Tue August 18, 2009 4:35 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
Quote
Originally posted by: Dubbinchris
Quote

Originally posted by: bohica2xo

This is a no-brainer. Fill the system with R12.















It will be a dog if you try to convert it, and it does not hold a lot of refrigerant.















B.







Ha ha....ship me some R12 and I'll be set.





Ha Ha yourself. Go ahead and put 134a in it. Then I can laugh at the long threads about how poorly it cools, short compressor life etc.



R12 is readily available. I worked on those systems when they were new - they were weak with R12, and converting one will be awful. Upgrading the system components to handle 134a will cost far more than the little bit of R12 it will take to fill the system.



B.

Well I get your point, but I can't buy R12 right now myself, and don't even know where to get it. Maybe you could help me out a little instead of belittling me about the possibility of using 134.

TRB on Tue August 18, 2009 4:45 PM User is offlineView users profile

Well you already posted one Auction link! So it would not be hard to use it again and search R12. Don't see where bohica2xo belittled anyone.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

Dubbinchris on Tue August 18, 2009 4:51 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: TRB
Well you already posted one Auction link! So it would not be hard to use it again and search R12. Don't see where bohica2xo belittled anyone.

Yes I did accidently post an auction link...guess I missed the note at the top of each page.

I did do some searching for R12 online, and it was pretty pricey.

I'm just on here trying to learn guys, isn't that what this forum is about? I also plan to certainly make a purchase or two from the site to help support the forum, b/c I think that's the right thing to do.

Telling me to go ahead and use 134 and then saying how he's going to laugh when it doesn't work sure isn't helping me at all.

Like I said in previous posts I'm willing to try and do what it takes to make this system reliable and work properly. I was always under the impression that R12 was hard to get. I'm starting to learn otherwise from this forum, but as far as I can tell it's pretty expensive. I don't mind spending a little money to get this system up and runing but I don't want to totally loose my shirt on it either.

I appreciate all the great answers that have been provided so far and would love to hear more for some of the other questions.

Thank you.

TRB on Tue August 18, 2009 4:58 PM User is offlineView users profile

That's using R12! Yes it cost $25.00 to do the open book test and then about $30.00 a can for refrigerant. To me that makes the most sense. Let some of the comments slide of your shoulder as Brad in his way is just trying to say don't mess with using R134a on this project. Ask why and I'm sure he will expand on the subject.

If you end up supporting us in the future. Thanks as it is what keeps this site operating.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

steve325is on Tue August 18, 2009 5:54 PM User is offline

The S.O. bought a brand new 90 Fox about 2 weeks before we met. The A/C cooled like crap right off the bat. I agree with Brad, don't use 134 in this car unless you live on the Oregon/Washing coast and never drive it inland. The 90 barely kept up with ambients in the high 80s, especially if the car was parked in the sun.

-- Steve

mk378 on Tue August 18, 2009 11:13 PM User is offline

Using R-12 borrow his manifold, R-22 manifolds are suitable for R-12 and the same mineral oil is used with both. The typical small HVAC manifold will attach directly to the fittings on your car (if they are both the same size. If you have a small high side fitting you will need an adapter for that).

If you buy R-12 in 12 oz cans you will need a can tapper, either a side tapper or a R-12 top tapper (which is different from a 134a top tapper)

They make an adapter so you can attach a R-134a manifold to his pump.

bohica2xo on Wed August 19, 2009 1:18 AM User is offline

I gave you good advice. You fired back with this gem:

Quote
Originally posted by: Dubbinchris


Ha ha....ship me some R12 and I'll be set.

If you choose to put 134a in it you will have a crappy system. I read "Ha Ha" as derision on your part.

B.



-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

Dubbinchris on Wed August 19, 2009 8:24 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
I gave you good advice. You fired back with this gem:



Quote
Originally posted by: Dubbinchris




Ha ha....ship me some R12 and I'll be set.



If you choose to put 134a in it you will have a crappy system. I read "Ha Ha" as derision on your part.



B.



I read it more as a joke thinking that R12 was hard to get especially for someone like myself who isn't in the business....

Dubbinchris on Wed August 19, 2009 8:28 AM User is offline

MK378.....thanks for that info. Very helpful! I guess it looks like I'm going to try and head down the R12 road if I can. Do you guys think I should still buy a new drier or not? Would a new one be better than a NOS one that's been around for some years?

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