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emmoa on Sun August 29, 2010 12:44 PM User is offline

Year: 1994
Make: dodge
Model: caravan base
Engine Size: 3.0
Refrigerant Type: r134a
Ambient Temp: n/a
Pressure Low: n/a
Pressure High: n/a
Country of Origin: United States

I have this vehicle since new,few months ago, due to heater core leaking,I disassembled the heating/ac housing and rebuilt this box. I purchased new heater core,evaporator, expansion valve and condenser to be installed.

I subscribe to alldatadiy and michell1 to help me thru this project. I found this site few days ago, great site.
I started this project since june and and from what I've known so far,I'm thinking about replacing the ac hoses since the vehicle is being opened up and sitting for all this time,although I tied up the openings of all the hoses with plastics, however, I'm still concerned about moisture and other contaminants. (cheaper alternative about ac hoses?)

I'm seriously thinking replacing the original ND8/PAG46 in the system with DEC PAG 46?. Is there such a thing?
Compressor flush in order? Thanks for your suggestions.

Felix.

ACProf on Sun August 29, 2010 1:14 PM User is offline



Edited: Thu September 09, 2010 at 9:33 PM by ACProf

emmoa on Sun August 29, 2010 5:33 PM User is offline

Thanks ACProf,
when you said "and pour as much as you can of 2-3 oz your new DEC PAG46 into the S opening and slowly rotating the hub. Stop when the oil bubbles out the P opening" The "s" opening you mean the suction opening? And 'p' opening?

ice-n-tropics on Sun August 29, 2010 5:36 PM User is offline

Felix,
ND8 is double end capped (DEC) polyaklylene glycol (PAG) lube.
If the system has been open for a while the PAG has absorbed moisture from the atmospheric air and the ND8 should be replaced with virgin ND8.
ND8 is basically/almost the same as Sanden SP10 (PAG 46) or Ford's Apollo PAG 46.
Prof
What flush does GM (& Ford and Chrysler) use? Brakeklean?
hotrodac

-------------------------
Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod

ACProf on Sun August 29, 2010 6:17 PM User is offline



Edited: Thu September 09, 2010 at 9:33 PM by ACProf

emmoa on Sun August 29, 2010 7:23 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: ice-n-tropics
Felix,

ND8 is double end capped (DEC) polyaklylene glycol (PAG) lube.

If the system has been open for a while the PAG has absorbed moisture from the atmospheric air and the ND8 should be replaced with virgin ND8.

ND8 is basically/almost the same as Sanden SP10 (PAG 46) or Ford's Apollo PAG 46.

Prof

What flush does GM (& Ford and Chrysler) use? Brakeklean?

hotrodac



Thanks ice-n-tropics, contamination reasons is why I was thinking to replace the ac hoses. along with lack of reasonably easy to access flushing equipments for tree shade diy like me to use. The virgin oil you mentioned is same as this?
https://www.ackits.com/pc/OB-6046C/Compressoroils/OB-6046C+-+DEC+PAG+46+%288+ounces%29+DYE

ACProf

The Brake Kleen you mentioned, are they available at auto parts stores or at the dealer?

Also, after the Brake Kleen ac hose job, do I need to go to a shop for the "150 psi dry air (well-filtered - use it for spray painting)"?. or this also can be reasonbly purchase locally to finish the job?

Also about my ealier questions about 's' and 'p' you mentioned in yor first post? Thanks.


Felix




Edited: Sun August 29, 2010 at 7:30 PM by emmoa

ACProf on Sun August 29, 2010 8:38 PM User is offline



Edited: Thu September 09, 2010 at 9:34 PM by ACProf

emmoa on Sun August 29, 2010 10:27 PM User is offline

Right now,I'm nursing a sore back,can't sit that long,otherwise my share of stories of incompetent mechanics will be plenty.

The mechanic I used to know retired was honest and competent, he does his work by the book,he also charges by the book,a little bit on the expensive side but I'll take it anytime for my peace of mind.

Anytime I encounter auto mechanical problems,the thing that add to my stress is finding a good mechanic,

If I have the space, I'll invest in appropriate tools and fix about 95% of my mechanical needs.

I'm sure there are very very good mechanics out there,this site and others that spend their time and experiences helping others freely are good indication of good people, I'm always appreciative of such ones.

Now back to the subject, so if I use just the brake kleen alone, without air blowing the hoses,the ac hoses would be good to go without leaving any invincible residue to harm anything?

I also posted a link about DEC PAG oil, just would like confirmation, or are there any better ac pag oil?

Thanks.


Felix.

TRB on Sun August 29, 2010 10:33 PM User is offlineView users profile

BVA oils are the best you can get in my opinion. Won't see them often on the local parts shelf.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

emmoa on Sun August 29, 2010 11:25 PM User is offline

Any link to this best BVA oil?

Thanks.

Felix.

Tennessee_Timmy on Mon August 30, 2010 6:56 AM User is offlineView users profile

http://www.ackits.com/c/Compressoroils/Auto+AC+Compressor+Oils.html


-------------------------
Good Luck 2 ya,
Timmy

ice-n-tropics on Mon August 30, 2010 11:29 AM User is offline

What more can be said?
Virgin ND8 means unused ND8 = Nippondenso PAG 46 = DENSO ND8
hotrodac

-------------------------
Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod

iceman2555 on Mon August 30, 2010 12:56 PM User is offlineView users profile

IMHO....never use brake kleen as an AC flush.....it simply does not clean a system. The volume of the product that remains in a true liquid form is minute. For a flush to adequately clean a system....the flush chemical must remain its true liquid form thru out the entire flush procedure. If you desire to obtain a 5 gal container of brakekleen and completely fill each component with a true liquid..then introduce air thru the system...this may work better....but why go to all the trouble...there are more suitable flush chemicals in the market....HECAT has a good one...ACKITS sells it...go for it....
Most OE's do not have a flush procedure. Ford utilizes a liquid flush/closed loop flush machine. All others suggest to replace the contaminated part. GM at one time suggested the use of a closed loop refrigerant flush...very expensive equipment.....but this process does little to remove hard contamination. Great for removing lube....
If the compressor is to have residual lubricants removed...simply drain the darn thing....add a few oz of new lube....rotate....drain.....repeat...and then add back the correct amount of new lube for the system...3 oz max. This is sufficient for the Denso type compressor. Add the remainder to your system. Be careful when adding lube to the new rec/drier. No more that 1/2 -1 oz.
Suggest to have your system charged by a competent tech utilizing the proper recharge equipment.
Good luck.

-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

ACProf on Mon August 30, 2010 6:38 PM User is offline



Edited: Thu September 09, 2010 at 9:34 PM by ACProf

emmoa on Mon August 30, 2010 9:53 PM User is offline

Thanks guys, I really appreciate all these information,they help me make informed decision. I was going to ask compressor question but iceman2555 answered before I can post. Thanks iceman2555.


ACProf


HECAT has a really good flushing apparatus. Too bad his smaller unit isn't available for rent (Tim?). However, AMA has HECAT's brand reuseable flush agent reasonably priced. Then comes the question of propelling it. Shop air, filtered and dried air, dry nitrogen, NEVER welder's OXYGEN - as someone inquired about) - another DIYer choice.



I've been thinking just that.



ACProf

I guess it comes down to how much the one-time DIYer wants to spend on tools and equipment in an attempt to save some money and do the capable work themselves. Need to consider a breakeven point. When comparing the price of acquiring the equipment to the cost of having the local AC shop perform the task the DIYer has to make that decision. I believe thats what emmoa is doing now



I really do not want to spend on ac hose kit unless I have to, probably I'll have to considering the above posts.




ice-n-tropics

What more can be said?
Virgin ND8 means unused ND8 = Nippondenso PAG 46 = DENSO ND8
hotrodac

Do you mean this as a virgin oil ND8/PAG46 ? Virgin? Are others in store used?

P125-8TSI - DEC PAG - Blue (8 Ounce Bottle)
Price: $8.94
Quantity in Basket: none

Or this?

OB-6046C - DEC PAG 46 (8 ounces) DYE
Price: $11.91
Quantity in Basket: none

Thanks.






Edited: Mon August 30, 2010 at 10:03 PM by emmoa

ice-n-tropics on Wed September 01, 2010 11:30 AM User is offline

My proxy for PAG recommendations other than ND8 is hereby transferred to TRB.
In other words, I only know OEM PAGs..period.
hotrodac

-------------------------
Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod

emmoa on Wed September 01, 2010 1:26 PM User is offline

The following is from ALLDATAdiy :

When all air conditioning system is first assembled, all components (except the compressor) are refrigerant oil free. After the system has been charged with R134a refrigerant and operated, the oil in the compressor is dispersed through the lines and components.

The evaporator, condenser, and filter-drier will retain a significant amount of oil, see below. When a component is replaced, the specified amount of refrigerant oil must be added.

When the compressor is replaced, the amount of oil that is retained in the rest of the system must be drained from the replacement compressor. When a line or component has ruptured and oil has escaped, the compressor should be removed and drained. The filter-drier must be replaced along with the ruptured part. The oil capacity of the system, minus the amount of oil still in the remaining components, can be measured and poured into the suction port of the compressor.

EXAMPLE: On a dual system the evaporator retains 60 ml (2 oz) . The condenser retains 30 ml (1 oz) of oil, and system capacity may be 220 ml (7.40 oz) of oil.
220 ml minus 90 ml = 130 ml (4.40 oz) .

CAUTION: The refrigerant oil used in a R-134a A/C system is unique. Use only oils which were designed to work with R-134a refrigerant. The oil designated for this vehicle is ND-8 PAG (polyalkalene glycol) .

Front A/C


- Compressor 142 ml (4.73 oz)

- Filter-Drier 15 ml (0.5 oz)

- Condenser 15 ml (0.5 oz)

- Evaporator 30 ml (1.0 oz)

Dual A/C


- Compressor 220 ml (7.4 oz)

- Filter-Drier 30 ml (1.0 oz)

- Condenser 30 ml (1.0 oz)

- Evaporator 60 ml (2.0 oz)

- Rear Evaporator 60 ml (2.0 oz)


I don't understand all of the above information so I really need your help using what's applicable in my case., I have front a/c only. In my case, new evaporator-condenser-filter drier- and hoses. None installed yet. I'm reusing the old original Denso compressor (waiting for a compressor shaft bolt tool and ACkits oil to start the draining process)

Somebody please help. From the above,how much total a/c oil for all the components? Thanks.






Thanks ice-n-tropics, I'm trying to use in this vehicle the recommended oem ND-8 PAG or equivalent . My understanding is that the oem ND-8 PAG or equivalent is not very good separating moisture from the oil, hence the introduction of DEC pag 46,better separating ac oil than the original oem ND-8 PAG? I'm trying to stay close to the recommened parts for this vehicle if all possible. All these a/c stuff are new to me, I'm learning though from here.

When you were talking about virgin ND8, I wanted clarification whether it's the same as OB-6046C - DEC PAG 46 (8 ounces) DYE from AMA site posted above.

Thanks.

Edited: Thu September 02, 2010 at 6:15 PM by emmoa

emmoa on Fri September 03, 2010 11:50 AM User is offline

Update:Looking carefully over the conformations, I found that ALLDATA and MITHELL1 a/c refrigerant oil capacity specifications are identical. Sorry, mistake on my part.

MITCHELL1 lists "Total system capacity unless otherwise noted" without Rear Unit 6.7 oz, have not seen ALLDATA total system capacity yet. ALLDATA "Capacity Specifications Information" With Front A/C Only -4.73 oz (US) It also lists somewhere -Front A/C -Compressor 142 ml (4.73 oz) - Filter-Drier 15 ml (0.5 oz) - Condenser 15 ml (0.5 oz) - Evaporator 30 ml (1.0 oz).

Comparing the two information,I figured the total A/C system refrigerant oil capacity about 6.7 oz.

If I'm right,how do you suggest the rest of the a/c oil get dispersed through the rest of these new components before they installed.

I know,as was suggested here by iceman2555-3 oz max into the compressor, rec/drier, no more that 1/2 -1 oz.
Anybody please?

Thanks Felix

emmoa on Sat September 04, 2010 5:57 PM User is offline

While waiting for my ordered DEC PAG 46 oil from ACKITS to refill the system, I would please like to know that if the components are refilled and sealed, and taken to the A/C shop for refrigeration charging, what would happen to the DEC PAG oil in the system?

Would it be drain out and refill with another kind of DEC PAG 46 oil during charging or this depend on how their A/C machine is setup?

Or the DEC PAG 46 oil already in my A/C system will remain during charging? I was thinking if my oil will be drain out during charging process,then why fill the components with oil? Then again I'm limited in knowledge about A/C stuff without somebody explaining. I'm hoping to receive a reply. Thanks

Felix.

ACProf on Sat September 04, 2010 6:57 PM User is offline



Edited: Thu September 09, 2010 at 9:35 PM by ACProf

emmoa on Sat September 04, 2010 8:19 PM User is offline

Thanks ACProf, I appreciate your response.

emmoa on Sat September 11, 2010 9:49 PM User is offline

Update: The A/C lines came with gaskests and o'rings already installed, Should I take them off and lube them and reinstall or leave them like that?

The compressor,after draining all old oil out , not much came out, I was able to pour in about 5.73 oz, while rotating the hub, ouch, was that too much?) trying to pour the remaining 1.0 oz in the rec/drier but its going in very very slowly, is that normal?

ACProf posts removed from this thread? Appreciate your response. Thanks.

Felix.




Edited: Sat September 11, 2010 at 10:03 PM by emmoa

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