Automotive AC Information Forum

Wed November 26, 2008 10:15 AM

Engine Cooling systems are seeing a lot of long life antifreeze related buildups that can clog heater cores, radiators, blocks, heads, intakes. If these buildups are not properly removed, they will cause poor cooling performance as well as deteriorate water pumps, gaskets, caps, thermostats, etc. There are many reasons this is occurring and it is occurring to some extent in near all makes and models.

In the most severe cases the chemical treatments and fluid exchange processes have little or no effect on clearing the blockages and a powerful and proven energy enhanced cleaning process capable of removing stubborn buildups and reaching into all the paths and passageways of the system is the only solution.

HECAT recently received the Professional Tool & Equipment News magazine's 2008 Innovation Award for this tool.

HECAT Coolant Pulsator

Let's talk about Engine Cooling and Heater Core clogging issues...

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com
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FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf

Edited: Tue December 23, 2008 at 6:45 AM by HECAT

Posts: 740
Joined: Oct 2001

JACK ADAMS
Senior Moderator

Wed November 26, 2008 11:29 AM

This is a common problem with the Chevy S-10 pick-up V-6 models. I have a 1995 with the Vortec 4.3L and has had this problem when I bought it. It was so bad that the movement of the coolant (Dex-cool) had rubbed the core raw and started leaking. It’s like sand or red mud when it brakes down.

For most of you that are familiar with this model you know what a pain it is to replace a heater core with a/c! I have done the repairs and also used the Hecat Coolant Pulsator to clean the rest of the system and works way better then that kit you buy at the auto stores. I would suggest that if you have a problem take care of it as soon as possible be for it cost you big $$$$$ if you have to take it to the shop……

Hope this helps..

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Jack Adams

AMA Inc., automotive a/c kits and quality a/c parts.

You may visit us at: www.ackits.com

Edited: Wed November 26, 2008 at 11:30 AM by JACK ADAMS

Wed November 26, 2008 1:50 PM

Thanks Jack for posting your personal experience with this tool. Here is a link to another one...

Chick's Coolant Pulsator Experience

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com
You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf

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Joined: Oct 2001

JACK ADAMS
Senior Moderator

Wed November 26, 2008 2:34 PM

That is a good link that show what I had in my system and in many others still on the road… DEX-MUD, but all clean now. Take care and have a happy Thanks Giving week-end..

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Jack Adams

AMA Inc., automotive a/c kits and quality a/c parts.

You may visit us at: www.ackits.com

Posts: 1659
Joined: Sep 2003

iceman2555
Senior Member

Fri November 28, 2008 10:44 PM

Question concerning removing the 'infamous' DexCool?
How does one adequately clean the 'grease/oil' like material from internal parts? Simply flushing does not seem to remove this substance.

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"Never save something for a special occasion. Every day in your life is a special occasion".

Sat November 29, 2008 8:31 AM

Quote
Originally posted by: iceman2555
Simply flushing does not.

Iceman, you answered your own question, simple flushing does not. The "Coolant Pulsator" uses a higher volume "Pulse" flushing method, because of larger volume requirements; than the A/C flush equipment you are familiar with. You could use some type of cleaner or dishwasher soap, but we have found it not necessary as the debris (mud) is dislodged and liquefied it becomes an assisting scrubbing media to aid in complete clearing and cleaning of the passageways.

This is not a Dex-Cool only problem, the clogging heater cores and sludge buildup is happening in Asian and European brands also.

However the grease/oil substance referred to could be the result of the "clay (mud) sealing pellets" that were installed at the factory by GM for a while. GM vehicles also suffer the "hot springs" effect when the system is allowed to run low on coolant for extended time; where the water separates from everything else as steam and deposits high levels of sediments, particulates , and "goo" in the air pockets. This separation (distillation) process depletes the anti rust additives in the antifreeze, thus accelerating the development of corrosion. The corrosion and chemical reactions that are occurring can also attack intake and head gaskets, as well as corrode transmission oil coolers; which could also create grease/oil issues in the cooling system.

During time of extended operation the corrosion particulates of aluminum oxide and metal rust are being created, which is also accelerated by many forms of electrolysis. The weakened antifreeze does not perform well as a rust inhibitor and the resulting corrosion also releases more casting sand from the iron blocks and heads, than seen before with Glycol antifreeze. Water Pumps also seem to be a high failure item today; most probably due to poor lubrication.

Now we have the makings of a party as members from "goo" begin to meet up with the many particulates and they seek out calmer places to congregate such as corners, crevices, seams, and any place they can accumulate in peace. These accumulations can grow to a point of clogging a heater core, radiator, or intake passage. Thus the linear flow of todays fluid exchange process (flushing?) or flushing tee's and other methods to use a hose to rinse; do just that, they rinse and flow over these accumulations in the corners and crevices. These type of methods lacks the ability to hammer the debris out of the corners and the energy necessary to carry it completely out of the system.

I hope I have shared enough to understand that this issue has the potential to domino into a problem in virtually any car if not monitored and serviced regularly. I believe that 100,000 miles is way too long and failure to properly and effectively clean the cooling system is why so many heater core replacements are coming back clogged again or leaking again. Just my Corrosion/Erosion theory.

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FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf

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iceman2555
Senior Member

Sat November 29, 2008 9:12 AM

Thanks, HECAT, this vehicle, unfortunately, belongs to my son (3.8 Camaro). The material seems oblivious to cleaning. We did the cleaner thing yesterday...heck...even broke down and purchased a rad cleaner....and this from a former rad man....but this failed to remove this substance...then tried the dish washing stuff.....and this too failed to remove the material. The 'oily' film attached to the inner rad, tranny cooler, and I am quite sure, other internal parts remains. Unfortunatley my ZOOGUN of past years has become a thing of the past....but what the heck...we work with what we have...did a bit of research last nite....some reference to a acid based flush...but not too keen on this stuff in an engine with aluminum parts...just an old hard feeling about aluminum and acid. Going over to the shop this AM....gonnna give the soap thing one more shot...see if I can remove some more of the darn stuff.
See GM finally bit the dust and settled the class action law suit concerning this 'crap'. Was in the dealer yesterday to pick up some parts. Mentioned this failure to the parts manager....of course, his expected reply was that there seems to be nothing wrong with DexCool.....yeah....and he is correct...as long as the system never gets low on coolant, never gets air into the system....and on and on...but back to the discussion. I suggested he 'google' the darn thing. When I returned later to pick up the ordered parts.....he had a much more 'congenial' attitude. Then he had statements about all the warranty (?) issues that the shop had experienced.
Made the mistake of telling him what I did for a living...now...headed back to the shop for discussions with the SvcMgr and his A/C techs......but hey, what the heck...he gave me a 'courtesy' discount on the parts.....
Take care, HECAT...talk with you later.

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"Never save something for a special occasion. Every day in your life is a special occasion".

Sun November 30, 2008 7:40 AM

Your poor results with various chemicals is something we hear often. There is a need to add scrubbing energy!!! Its like trying to wash you car with just a hose, until you add a rag with some elbow grease; there is a limit to how much you can wash off the car with just the hose.

There is even a 60 step (all day process) GM TSB specifying a two part chemical that is a caustic acid and neutralizer that does not appear to be as effective as it should be. The chemicals cannot dissolve the aluminum, metal, sand, clay particulates, and other mineral deposits. I agree with that feeling that using an acid that corrodes aluminum, to clean aluminum; does not sit well.

I think the Dex-Cool and other Long Life Antifreeze products are good products, we are just going through the "pains" of the problems necessary to understand long term use and service issues; so the OE's can perfect service intervals (IMHO-way too long) and procedures. I still use Dex-Cool in all of my personal and company GM's; but we service them as frequently as we did Glycol systems.

Make sure you verify the overflow tube to be clear so the "hot springs" effect does not return to your GM.

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com
You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf

Posts: 1659
Joined: Sep 2003

iceman2555
Senior Member

Sun November 30, 2008 4:00 PM

I have read part of the GM bulletin.....and correct..it is definitely an all day job....at least after a few cold ones to calm the 'jitters'....Cokes my favorite.....New Cranberry SIerra Mist is good also..but that is about it for 'a cold one' for me.
We were able to clean the system adequately. The only remaining 'sludge' is located at the rad cap area and a bit on the tranny cooler. The other areas seem to be free of the mess. Water pump, inlet and outlet is good....heater core is good....thermo area and water inlet are clean...so perhaps...beat the beast this time. Replaced the 'Dex' with the good ole fashioned 'green' stuff. Will operate the vehicle with this mixture for a few hundred miles...then do the flush...refill once more. Will stay with the 'green' stuff...although spoke with a friend yesterday...he is a AMSOIL dealer and they have this fantastic (his words) coolant...good for 275k.....yeah like I have that many years left....well...if the Lord does bless me.....this stuff is about $35 a gal.....heck..better be better than water at that price...but will stay with the 'green' stuff for now.
One auto down....next the wife's mode of transportation.....same scenario....flush...hoses....refill.....gee another day at the shop spending more than I take in.....gosh...that sounds soooo familiar....
Ya'll take care....have a great week....headed back to TX for a couple of weeks...checked the weather.....headed down below 30.....if this keeps up...gonna have to go Walmart and purchase an entire new wardrobe......'long johns' (with access or should we say egress panel)and all.

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"Never save something for a special occasion. Every day in your life is a special occasion".

Posts: 3483
Joined: Apr 2002

bohica2xo
Senior Member

Sun November 30, 2008 5:29 PM

Yup, the "greasy stuff" can be a real problem. Many times the first warning is a coolant sensor issue. a "Low Coolant" warning that turns out to be a false alarm.

The Buick dealer tried to sell my wife's father a pair of head gaskets when his coolant sensor got "oil fouled" - claimed the only place to get oil in the coolant was the heads. He is not easily fooled. He drove it from Winnipeg, MB to my doorstep - noting that it did not seem to overheat, use coolant or oil. Asked me what I thought.

I drained the system, and found it to be coated with the aforementioned greasy crud. Refilled the system with a 50% mix of Zep Citrus degreaser & water - and sent him off to play on the strip. After a day of driving, the radiator was polluted - but the crud was more or less in suspension. I pulled the lower radiator hose clamp, and started the engine. As the lower hose blew off, I shut the engine down. Pulled the upper hose, popped the cap on and flushed the radiator only, in the upper, out the lower.

After things cooled down, I put it back together & repeated the water / degreaser. Another day of short trips, and the radiator looked great. Flushed everything out real well and put fresh coolant back in it. No more "Low Coolant" warning. That was at about 200,000km. He was here again last month, with 300,000km on the car now, running like a watch.

Some sort of strong surfactant is your best bet. The HECAT unit can (and will!) dislodge all sorts of debris, and has a nice high velocity for cleaning. A good surfactant will help emulisify the thin film of grease that tends to adhere to all of the surfaces, and should help the HECAT unit blow it out of your system.

If you don't mind replacing all of the hoses & the thermostat you could use Gunk GP, or floor stripper... I would stick with a more gentle surfactant like Zep or Simple Green myself.

B.

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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

Sun November 30, 2008 6:44 PM

I agree that surfactants and other water based soaps should aid in attacking the "greasy/oil/mud/sludge". I must admit that we failed to focus much testing with surfactants, after we saw the excellent results without chemicals; given the limited number of test cases we have has the opportunity to clean.

With use of the "Coolant Pulsator"; I have refrained from recommending such, based upon past tests with "soaps" that foamed in the flushing process, which seemed to eventually weaken the "Pulsating" action. Certainly there are many products, which may also include the ones recommended, that will have an anti-foaming agent; or a suds rinse before 'Pulse" flushing can continue, may be required. Always be sure to understand the "catch or release" rules regarding the outflow, when using a chemical cleaner.

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com
You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf

Edited: Tue December 16, 2008 at 10:23 AM by HECAT

Posts: 3483
Joined: Apr 2002

bohica2xo
Senior Member

Sun November 30, 2008 8:24 PM

Karl:

Perhaps I could have been a bit more clear... I would use the surfactant and water as a circulating flush, then dump it before I tried your pulsator.

I can just imagine the shaving cream you could make with the pulsator + soap! I hold a patent on foam generation for firefighting, you should try som Phos-Check in your pulsator for fun sometime.

B.

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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

Sun November 30, 2008 9:20 PM

Oh yeah, its funny as hell, after you get over the shock of the first experience; when you make buckets of "shaving cream" in seconds

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com
You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf

Tue December 16, 2008 10:29 AM

Here is another testimonial (his words) from a HECAT Trans Oil Cooler and A/C Flusher user, that recently purchased a Coolant Pulsator...

"Son of a b*tch....I'm a hero! People got no idea if their trans cooler is clean, or if their A/C system's been flushed, but when you can take a Taurus or S-10 Blazer that you can't keep the frost off the window, and make it so hot they gotta turn it down...believe me, they NOTICE! I only wonder why I didn't buy this thing 5 years ago. Thanks!"

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com
You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf