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Nick, how does this grab you?

Bigchris on Thu April 13, 2006 9:07 AM User is offline

Illuminating!

NickD on Fri April 14, 2006 7:47 AM User is offline

We'll see what happens, sounds like a form of amorphous electroluminescence, electroluminescence has been around for awhile as some of my test equipment uses these panels for back lighting LCD's with extremely low light intensity levels. The article admits to this by using entire wall panels.

Amorphous silicon solar panels were promised during the energy crisis in the 70's that sounds similar, but how do you connect wires to a plastic sheet? Also read about molecular level computers that avoids the same question, how do you wire to molecules? Connectivity is the major obstacle in these types of science fiction types of devices that has to be solved. With all this technology at hand, spending hours cleaning hundreds of corroded connections in my motorhome project using hundreds of feet of wire. The electroluminescence panels I know of require a metalized substrate with contact points to wire in the voltage.

The technology of a microchip is defined as the thickness of of conductor used to connect one transistor or component to another with the latest using land widths of around 0.2 microns. In chips I have designed that look much like a printed circuit board, not only have these wires in a horizontal plane, but with a chip with 17 insulated layers, have a bunch of wiring also running vertical between layers, most of the chip is connectivity. When driving in subzero weather depending on my engine running for warmth, don't even want to think of these millions of connections, one goes bad and I am dead.

In discussing using red, blue, and green cells to make light light, over 50 years TV picture tube technology that is being replaced by pixels today, but each pixel needs the same two wires to make it work, again lots of wires in those screens and if one goes bad, you see a blank spot on the screen or with multiplexing, a blank area. These problems have not been covered in this article. If they do start off with bicycle lights, must be talking about an illuminated reflector.

Our brains have a lot of wiring, and when that goes haywire, we go nuts, would be nice to get rid of the wiring, but how do you control a device without it? Lightning storms don't use wiring, per se, kind of random and very uncontrolled.

Bigchris on Fri April 14, 2006 1:58 PM User is offline

Seems like the folks making automobile grills eventually got the hang of attaching metal to plastic and getting it to stay there. I was struck by the claim toward the end of the article suggesting 100% conversion efficiency was possible. That statement raised the thought of snake oil in my mind.

bohica2xo on Fri April 14, 2006 2:48 PM User is offline

Oh boy, more of your tax dollars pissed away at a university. No surprise, a CA university.

Another sham, with a "5 to 10 year expected life" - and a payback that is probably 20 years. Much like PV solar power, where the payback is 25 years, and the equipment has a 10 year warranty.

We already have effecient lighting. Tri-phosphor tubes, running on high frequency electronic ballasts are VERY effective, and generate very little heat. I have a suspended ceiling, with high freqency ballasts that run so cool it is difficult to tell if they are warmer than ambient by feel. Good light quality too. Better than 5 year life, I installed them 6 years ago. Off the shelf parts, no maintence issues. Cost was reasonable too.

But there are only so many places a flat panel works as a lighting fixture. You still need accent lighting, task lighting, etc. Much of this type of lighting has already been replaced with high effeciency flourescent stuff in commercial buildings. Gone are the days of funky color rendition, and low lumen outputs.

One of the places solid state lights have a good payback is in traffic signals. Because of the long life, and relative mechanical ruggedness, an LED trafffic light is a great. Re-lamping traffic signals is dangerous, costly work. The cost of the bulb is noting compared to the cost of the crew, and traffic control.

.



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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Fri April 14, 2006 3:39 PM User is offline

My 30 some year old 48" fluorescence hanging fixture died last week, never replaced the tubes, but the Advanced ballast transformer gave up. Only tried taking one of these apart a long time ago, too much goo to contend with, so off to the store for a new fixture, did find a replacement Advanced ballast was 18 bucks, made in Chicago, but the entire fixture was only ten bucks with the ballast.

New one is made in China, have to admit, the white paint is better, but the ballast is only a quarter of the size and when I switch on the light, hear an alarm clock type buzz that even awoke me once. Plus a constant annoying hum when the lamp is on, the Advanced was dead quiet. So maybe time to buy an Advanced ballast.

One way to get free light is to put a large mirror in orbit, but maybe we should go to bed when the sun sets and awake when it rises, ha, would be nice doing that in the winter time where we have 14 hour nights. Another thought is to put the light only where we need it, so we should turn off all the lights and wear a coal miners head lamp.

Never minded when the kids turned on all the lights during the winter as the cost of electricity is about the same as natural gas and that heat helps to heat the house, but scream bloody murder when lights are left on during the AC season. Funny to go into town at 3:00AM, no a soul in sight, but the town is lit up like a Christmas tree, seems like a waste to me.

bohica2xo on Fri April 14, 2006 9:21 PM User is offline

Nick:

The only answer for a ballast is high frequency electronic. I am easily annoyed by the lamp flicker from magnetic ballasts, and the import stuff is noisy as you have noted.

Take a look HERE for some specs, you can see why it is an improvment. A noticable improvment in lamp output when you replace the magnetic ballast.


B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Sat April 15, 2006 8:20 AM User is offline

Interesting that switchmode technology has entered the fluorescence fixture field, while I have purchased many fluorescence tubes, ballasts, and even starters over the years, never really looked into the technology nor grabbed a tube to learn exactly what it takes to excite it. For my own shop lamps, I look for hanging chains, the reflector, and something I never been able to find, one with a pull chain switch on it, so have to add those.

Don't recall seeing any fluorescence fixtures advertising an electronic ballast so may have to do more searching in the local stores, for some reason, willing to bet that the price of the entire fixture with an electronic ballast is cheaper than just buying the ballast by itself plus the time it takes to properly wire it in.

Are you aware of a chain store that sells these fixtures? Felt I had to play with this import too much as it was, couldn't find one with the reflector, so had to trim my old one and mount it, plus add the pull chain switch. The hanging chains that came with the new one ended up in the trash can and I used my old ones, felt if I pulled on the switch chain a tad bit too hard, the entire fixture would land on my head. Willing to spend a couple of bucks more if I can find something decent.

meaux on Sat April 15, 2006 10:09 AM User is offlineView users profile

Last year I bought 2 4' T8 shop lights w/ chain pull on/off switch from Home Depot for $12 ea.

The T8 ballasts lasted 10mos. for one, 11 mos. on the other.

The replacement T8 ballasts were $28 ea. and were twice the size of the originals. Drill new mounting holes...

Instant on, no buzz...Love em'. When the Kitchen lights go, I just might replace the inards w/ T8 ballasts instead of buying the whole fixture only to replace the ballasts next year...I sure hope the $28 ballasts last longer than the orginals...

-------------------------
Lazy bum who lives off his wife.

01 BMW 530i Sport, 92 Porsche 968, 85 F150, 72 911, 08 GM SUV, 01' Ford Lightnin'

Edited: Sat April 15, 2006 at 5:49 PM by meaux

bohica2xo on Sat April 15, 2006 3:50 PM User is offline

Nick:

I am guessing you are looking for a workshop light, with a reflector. I don't know of any chain stores, but I know you can get what you want from McMaster-Carr.

You have several options for reflectors, and minimum starting temps. If you need to start at 0f, you could use P/N 1613K46 There are many fixtures listed on pg 658 of their online catalog. They are good folks to deal with, and if what you get is not what you wanted they don't argue over returns.


B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Sun April 16, 2006 7:05 AM User is offline

Guess there is inflation after all, in about 1972 purchased a half dozen of these lamps, they did include the bulbs back then with the hanging chains, solid reflector, top brand magnetic ballast, and the pull switch for around nine bucks each. From a local hardware store, asked for a special price, think the normal price was around twelve bucks each. Most of the lamps still have the original bulbs, Westinghouse commercial T12's. When I purchased a dual T12 fixture without the reflector, switch, and bulbs for $10.99, thought there wasn't much inflation in these, but maybe this one won't last 34 years. The most similar to what I have is 16235K51 $71.89 from McMaster or about eight times the price and if you add the price of the bulbs, almost ten times the 1972 price, but not as bad as my property taxes that is about 20 times the price from 1972. Still had a brand new school and good roads back then with good teachers. Not earning 20 times as much as back then and tend to feel at times the major ripoff artist is our government, we are not getting the value for our buck. Even had a much larger war going on back then, VN, if you recall.

NickD on Mon April 17, 2006 10:17 AM User is offline

Should have looked a bit further a 48" fixture with electronic ballast and using the narrower T8 32 watt tubes, with reflector and low temperature operation is $19.99, but still lacking the pull chain switch. Still crazy, $19.99 for the entire fixture with the electronic ballast, but a Sylvania electronic ballast for the 32 watt T8 tubes was sitting next to the fixtures for $24.99! Didn't say what brand of ballast used in the complete fixture, just said it was electronic.

Same old marketing ploy about lowering the price a penny to make it sound ten bucks cheaper, getting sick of that along with gas selling for $2.799 per gallon. A new station is opening in town selling soy bean diesel and 85% ethanol with 15% gasoline, claim the latter can be used in any car made after 2001 and suppose to be cheaper, but didn't say how much cheaper or what kind of mileage you can expect.

meaux on Mon April 17, 2006 10:35 AM User is offlineView users profile

Nick says, "Didn't say what brand of ballast used in the complete fixture, just said it was electronic."

It's a little bitty thing and won't last a year...But I've allready said that... :-) Might as well have the larger starter on hand.... :-)


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Lazy bum who lives off his wife.

01 BMW 530i Sport, 92 Porsche 968, 85 F150, 72 911, 08 GM SUV, 01' Ford Lightnin'

NickD on Mon April 17, 2006 2:37 PM User is offline

Difficult to say what's in there until you look and depending on the brand. Could be junk, could be the good stuff, but when Sears and others charge $360.00 for just the engine on a lawn mower they sell for $250.00, the replacement parts market is at a premium. This is a shame and was not that way back in the 50's and 60's when you could buy all the parts for any product cheaper than the assembled floor price. And in particular at a time when the government is saying we have to recycle, heck, if a little part goes bad on any appliance or even your automobile for that matter, it's cheaper to buy a new one than pay for that part. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if they are using a 25 buck retail parts price for a ballast that is used in a twenty buck fixture.

meaux on Mon April 17, 2006 4:28 PM User is offlineView users profile

One indication is, pick up the entire fixture, pretty light isn't it?

Then go pick up the $20+ ballast...That Ballast alone will weigh more than the entire fixture w/ the cheap Ballast in it. You'll be able to tell...

If the complete fixture is heavy, all the better...But I doubt it... Hell, you allready knew that... :-)

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Lazy bum who lives off his wife.

01 BMW 530i Sport, 92 Porsche 968, 85 F150, 72 911, 08 GM SUV, 01' Ford Lightnin'

Edited: Mon April 17, 2006 at 4:42 PM by meaux

JJM on Mon April 17, 2006 6:10 PM User is offline

Oh great... now what am I gonna do with all those cans I just wired up -- and all the BX I used to connect them? Not to mention all the time spacing, cutting holes, installing fire blocking....

Anybody want to buy a few 3" and 5" hole saws?

So the light bulb technology is 135 or so years old. Why is that a BAD thing? Perhaps the reason why the technology hasn't changed is because, DUH, it works! I bet the guy in this article has contempt for the wheel too.

What does amaze me is just how much Nick knows about stuff like this right off the top of his head.

Joe

NickD on Mon April 17, 2006 11:31 PM User is offline

Are you referring to the old fashion magnetic ballast made with a huge iron core transformer, or the newer electronic type employing switchover technology.

It's well known that the size of the core decreases by the square of the frequency, but there is a practical limit in making the transformer too small, a lower permeability powered iron core is used in switchover that is fired by a chopping transistor. Some switchover designs operate at 50 MHz, but a mere 1 MHz is more likely used in a ballast, compare either to whiz and you have a transformer that weighs an ounce, entire circuit about 3 ounces. So comparing weight is not a factor anymore in the electronic types. Usually the first components to bite the dust in switchover supplies are the electrolytic filter capacitors and this depends highly on the engineer if he considers surge factors and compensates for that in the design. But this may add a couple of cents to the circuit that the bean counters won't permit. Much depends upon the integrity of the company for reliability and marketing doesn't real care for items that last year after year, cuts into future profits.

NickD on Tue April 18, 2006 6:55 AM User is offline

For a magnetic ballast, more important than pure weight is the operating temperature rise, stuff you can't see is the type of core material used and the type of winding and whether the coil was vacuum impregnated with a high quality insulating varnish. I know the ballast in my cheaply ain't going to last due to the hum noise, adjacent coils are rubbing together making that noise that is going to wear away the thin varnish on the magnetic wire causing a dreaded shorted turn, I didn't put my hand on it to learn how hot it is running, but probably would burn my hand doing it. Since I already modified this lamp with a switch and added reflector, can't take it back, so will have to consider putting in a decent ballast or replacing the lamp. Should last a long time as long as I don't turn it on.

All we hear about, especially from the electric company when they unethically jump up the rates due to the increase price of gasoline that they don't even use is to conserve on usage, but I have never seen so much electrical low efficiency junk put on the market. Why do I feel that America is becoming a very corrupt country?

meaux on Tue April 18, 2006 9:44 AM User is offlineView users profile

Dang Nick, I'm dizzy!

All I'm saying is the heavier elecronic $28 T8 Ballast will last longer than the tiny rinky dink featherweight T8 Ballast, that comes in the $19 whole fixture... Just my experience with this junk.



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Lazy bum who lives off his wife.

01 BMW 530i Sport, 92 Porsche 968, 85 F150, 72 911, 08 GM SUV, 01' Ford Lightnin'

NickD on Tue April 18, 2006 1:24 PM User is offline

Ha, we do agree on use of the word junk, but don't feel I was screwed too bad after looking at the prices they wanted for replacement tube sockets and a six foot line cord, that far exceeded the price I paid for my piece of junk. I more than got the cheap ballast for free.

Actually, mine is an energy saving ballast, since I can hear the buzz of that thing 3 blocks away, reminds me that I left the light on and should turn it off.

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