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Window Shaker Went South......

GM Tech on Tue July 11, 2006 9:28 AM User is offline

Last week the living room went hot--- so I open up the front of the 4 yr old Carrier 24,000 BTU unit- put on an A1 tap on a s/8 line-- no pressure in it-- huh- where is the leak?-- go outside peel open a few vents- find that the liquid line from the condenser separates into three very little copper tubes which act as orifices- evidently creating three flow paths (circuits) through the evaporator- well these three little lines must need to be a certain length- so they are "wound" in about a six inch circle- and tend to vibrate as the unit runs- of course they rub each other- and there were no less than five rub spots on theses copper tubes- one of which was the culprit that let out all my R-22-- so I do what any other a/c mechanic might do- I get out my trusty plumbing soldering torch and solder- and proceed to fix the leak- it worked like a charm- pulled a good vacuum- charged back to 38 ounces R-22- and now the room is cool again-- Can't help but wonder why Carrier can't design this system to not rub through the lines-- I bent and isolated them all- even added solder to the rubs- that were not all the way through....... Just saved myself about $400-- can only imagine what the majority of folks would do..............

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The number one A/C diagnostic tool there is- is to know how much refrigerant is in the system- this can only be done by recovering and weighing the refrigerant!!
Just a thought.... 65% of A/C failures in my 3200 car diagnostic database (GM vehicles) are due to loss of refrigerant due to a leak......

MrBillPro on Tue July 11, 2006 9:41 AM User is offlineView users profile

Tech, hey I see that happen all the time in home evaporators and condensers, hey we just had one the other day unit maybe 5-years old the wiring going down to the compressor from the service box inside the unit was just laid across the suction line rubbed a place in the run wire and shorted out on the copper and yep blew a little hole in the suction line, I did the same as you she is purring like a kitten now hey maybe the mfg. are just looking out for us service guys you know job security.

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Don't take life seriously... Its not permanent.

NickD on Tue July 11, 2006 11:43 AM User is offline

Ha, just a matter of finishing the job where the manufacturer left off, with motorized appliances like a new washer and dryer, good idea to lubricate all the moving parts, check the wiring for rubbing and tighten all the nuts and bolts before plugging them in. In particular the water pump, last one I looked at the oil wicks were as dry as the Sahara dessert. A friend purchased a new air compressor, the motor bearings were the same way.

Same with our vehicles, make sure you check for wire chafing if you buy a new F-16 and watch out for those high voltage wires right next to low voltage fuel level sensor wires if you buy a 747.

Really had a weird one a couple of months ago, wife was using an old portable cassette player and put in a freshly charged AA NiMH and set it down. Somehow that battery developed an internal short, got red hot, that melted the case. I checked the cassette player out, it didn't short out the battery and the player still worked only drawing a couple of milliamperes, but pitched it anyway and got her a new one. Could have attached a battery holder and let it dangle from the player with a couple of wires as they was no way to put the batteries in the player holder.

Now if that happened with an expensive digital camera, would have been contacting the manufacture.

Now what does the average person do in case of a catastrophic failure? Three options, pitch it and buy a new one, be handy and fix it yourself, but my favorite, raise hell with the manufacturer. Some examples, a gas built in oven where the gas solenoids kept on burning up, manufacture came up with new high temperature solenoids and shielding that permanently corrected the problem and repaired my unit for free. A 240 volt sewer pump where the manufacturer made an error in his parts list and manufacturer and installed a 120 volt relay coil instead, not only replaced the relay with the correct ones, but paid the plumbing bills. A computer monitor that caught fire, checked the inverter circuit and learned quickly with the application sheet, all the safety devices were left out, got a brand new monitor at no charge, but if I wasn't home at the time and my house burnt down, they would have gotten that bill too. All of these products were out of warranty. There are more examples of a faulty gas valve in a furnace and even complaints against automotive companies that were quietly repaired. I would have raised hell with Carrier if that happened to me, no excuse for that, but that is just me.

Battles that I have lost were with Japanese companies like Toyota and Sony, wasn't worth paying an attorney to repair these problems but that is what we get by letting these companies including China into our country, practically all American companies showed concern for even out of warranty problems with their products.

Kolbergk on Tue July 11, 2006 6:38 PM User is offline

Can the average Joe buy R22 to fix his home A/C unit? If so from where? Just wondering, my unit is 16 years old and you never know. Thanks.

NickD on Tue July 11, 2006 7:29 PM User is offline

WARNING
Federal Law provides that ONLY the following can purchase refrigerants.

1. Certified Refrigerant Technicians approved by the E.P.A. under Section 608 of the Clean Air Act. (For R-22)
2. Purchasers of refrigerant for resale to a Certified Refrigerant Technician.
3. Purchasers of R-134a, R-410A, and refrigerant supplies do not need a license.
4. Automotive Certified Refrigerant Technicians approved by the E.P.A. under Section 609 of the Clean Air Act (R-12 only).

Futhermore:

R22 or HCFC-22 is a single component HCFC refrigerant with low ozone depletion potential. It has long been used in a variety of air-conditioning and refrigeration applications in a variety of markets, including appliance, construction, food processing, and supermarkets.

So if the last part is true, and NASA is now claiming the south pole ozone depletion is caused by wind currents why is R-12 still banned for production and why is R-22 with less than a 5% potential than R-12 for so-called theoretical ozone depletion only sold to certified technicians?

Seems like when these dumb laws get on the books, no one wants to take them off, R-22 is only running around 2-3 bucks a pound, you may have to call a 608 tech if you have problems.

NickD on Tue July 11, 2006 8:48 PM User is offline

Your question regarding purchasing R-22 kicked off a question with me, how does one get a 608 certificate? Those of us that received a 609 certificate learned quite quickly, we really don't have to know anything about MVAC, rather it was a test about threats if R-12 was not properly recovered and how it should be recycled, etc.

Now according to the EPA, the most dangerous to the environment refrigerant ever, is R-12 that isn't even used in HVAC systems, well maybe someone is, always someone. But the point is that the general refrigerants used in HVAC and refrigeration in general are far safer, but at least a factor of 20 than R-12. So based on the ease of getting a 609 certificate, a 608 certificate should be about 20 easier.

A google search on taking the 608 test led me to the bay where some guy is trying to sell a link for ten bucks on how to take the test online, open book, and for $24.95, this guy claims he doesn't know anything about AC but took the test in three hours and passed it, got his certificate in the mail shortly after then purchased a 30 pound tank of R-22 locally saving himself 30-40 bucks in shipping charges.

So rather than sending him ten bucks, simply typed in "take the epa 608 test open book test for $24.95" on goggle and got several links. Read several and seems like the major concern of these test outfits is to first get your $24.95, I checked a few out against the EPA list of approved testing facilities and these seemed legitimate.

Did any of you take the open book test online for $24.95? Did it take you three hours or less to complete? And did you receive a valid 608 certificate shortly after so you could buy a can of R-22 locally?

mascas on Fri July 14, 2006 6:02 PM User is offline

I went to an american trainco two day class and got my universal. I dont remember how much it cost (company footed the bill)

NickD on Fri July 14, 2006 11:13 PM User is offline

Any questions on wet bulb temperatures, super or sub heat calculations, different control systems, proper charging techniques, leak testing, or was it don't release refrigerants in the atmosphere stuff.

MrBillPro on Sat July 15, 2006 10:38 AM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: NickD
Any questions on wet bulb temperatures, super or sub heat calculations.


Nick it's Wet Bulb,Superheat, and Sub Cooling, never heard of Sub Heat calcs. but hey maybe I missed something along the journey.

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Don't take life seriously... Its not permanent.

NickD on Sat July 15, 2006 11:22 AM User is offline

I did that intentionally to see if anyone would catch it, since you did, you are hereby eligible to purchase one can of R-22, but for resale only providing you provide your business name and address and your tax resale number. Ha, don't require a 608 for that.

Dougflas on Fri July 21, 2006 6:47 PM User is offline

Nick,
When I took my 608 universal test, it had many dates, pressure relationships, chiller questions, recovery questions, leakage rate questions, etc. I paid about $80.00 for the study materials and it included one test to be taken under the watchful eyes of a proctor. If you study the material, you can pass it.

When I find leaks that have left a unit with no pressure in it, I get very anal and insist that the drier is changed; in the case where there was no drier, I put one in.


be safe

Doug

NickD on Sat July 22, 2006 7:23 AM User is offline

Hmmm, all that just to buy a can of R-22? Was curious about several sites I have found offering an open book test, claims three hours maximum with a pricetag of $24.95. Like, EPA 608 Test

Ha, or just buy an R410A system that doesn't require a certificate. Wonder about R410A with all the negative things I have said about blends, another blend, 50:50 mixture of R32 and R125. Neighbor has an R410A system, wonder if they screwed up when charging it, sounds like a 747 crashing into a brick wall whenever it kicks on. See that R410A operates at 160% the pressures of R-22.

Gee, my neighbors moved out last week and never said goodbye, the guy was okay, his wife was a psycho, thinks her property runs up to my driveway and is always peeking out the window and comes out screaming if she thinks my pup is stepping in my yard that she thinks is hers, or if I use my leaf or snow blower. They came in from out of town and purchased a brand new home no one around here would touch from the reputation of the builder. Don't know how they could afford to live there, always see some kind of service truck parked out in front at least once a week. Ha, my quiet wife said, would like to buy that house and burn it down. Their house has been on the market for over three years now and perhaps will stay on the market for another three. I just gave her a deaf ear when she came out screaming like she wasn't even there, don't have the time to put up with stuff like that.

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