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Isn't R-134a Environmentally Friendly anymore? Pages: 12

NickD on Wed September 26, 2007 9:39 PM User is offline

Guess not, at least according to all the writeups on CO2, "R-134a is a known greenhouse gas that causes global warming."

Sure sounds a lot more powerful and factual compared to the theoretical unproven demise of R-12 that may deplete the ozone layer.

If R-134a is that dangerous, shouldn't vehicles that be converted to R-134a be converted back to R-12? Should I remove that, "I'm saving the environment by using R-134a", bumper sticker off my car? Here I thought I was being a nice little boy and complying with the latest rulings and recommendations, now I am the sole cause of global warming.

Wait, didn't Al Gore and Arnold Schwarzenegger say that CO2 was the cause of global warming? Now I am getting confused, one can hardly dispute these two highly qualified experts.

One thing for sure, we can expect more changes in MVAC, certainly the marketeers will come out with a CO2 blend that will be a direct replacement for R-134a.

mk378 on Thu September 27, 2007 1:56 PM User is offline

The GWP of R12 is variously quoted as 8200 to 8500, R134a is merely 1300, so any way they measure it: R12 bad.

All really silly when you can buy dusters, air horns, etc. filled with R134a. Those when used as intended will release the substance directly to the air.

TRB on Thu September 27, 2007 2:17 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: mk378
The GWP of R12 is variously quoted as 8200 to 8500, R134a is merely 1300, so any way they measure it: R12 bad.



All really silly when you can buy dusters, air horns, etc. filled with R134a. Those when used as intended will release the substance directly to the air.

Many air dusters these days use R152a, Difluoroethane.



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NickD on Sun September 30, 2007 9:15 AM User is offline

With the reported trillions of tons of CFC's released into the atmosphere, where did it all go. Cleaned up the tank on my air compressor, ran it, let it sit for a couple of days, and expected to get a peep out of my leak detector when I slowly opened the very bottom drain valve. Not a peep, maybe we should try this with a million gallon tank, or maybe UV radiation from the sun broke it all down back to it's natural components.

According to the bible, Joseph prophesied a severe drought in Egypt and prepared for it, same kind of drought with Moses, but he caused it, wonder what the environmentalist would blame on that? Obviously, they were not driving hybrid cars. Same with the Maya's where an advanced civilization totally disappeared in 900 AD of over 3 million people due to a long drought stopping all rain fall just north of Panama where it rains like crazy. Some scientists believe that sun activity decreased over this span of time cooling the north changing wind patterns causing this severe drought, certainly can't blame the industrial revolution on this. They speculate the severe shortage of food led these warlike people to first rub out their god like leaders, then each other.

Now, sun activity is at the highest causing a long term global warming leading to increased crop production and a population explosion, some estimate the present capacity of the earth is 8 billion people, we are almost there. But if the sun activity cools down, which they say it is, the capacity of the earth will reduce down to 2 billion people, first starvation, then a series of wars to wipe out the rest.

Returning back to 300 year old technology may not be a good idea where it took about ten square miles of fertile land to support a family, today, a square mile can support hundreds. Hard to say with man's small contribution to CO2 levels if that is the only reason why the earth can support the current population, if we all switch to hybrids, ignoring the side effects of additional pollution, reducing CO2 content with reported decreased sun activity may wipe out billions of people. But we are living on the edge.

Ironically, refrigerants have been a key target over the last 15 years, seems like just a drop in the bucket compared to everything else. Would be interesting if CO2 is adopted, would DuPont let this happen? This small but insignificant change will cost them billions, do you think they will let this happen? After all, most of our environmental changes have resulted in the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

JJM on Tue October 02, 2007 2:48 PM User is offline

Since CO2 is now being blamed as a major cause of global warming, despite it's GWP being a big fat 1, there really is no hope for air conditioning and refrigeration. The environmental reprobates simply will not allow HVACR to utilize such "dangerous" gases like CO2. I'm just waiting for these loons to ban the fizz from soft drinks... don't worry, that's coming too.

As for hybrids, I hope my posts somehow survive 20 or 30 years to prove how right I am. Once enough people are driving hybrids and start to enjoy them, the America haters will "discover" they're causing some kind of ecological disaster and impending doom is near. They won't be happy until we're all riding bicycles - or government transit. Kind of like the trans fat bans here in NYC. Trans fats were supposed to be the "healthy" alternative to saturated fats, now we're being told that trans fats are unhealthy, and they're being banned. So what do we do, go back to saturated fats?

Anyone notice how your treats (chips, cookies, etc.) taste without trans fats? They taste like cardboard now. I DID NOT ASK THEM TO CHANGE! I think I can make my own decisions on what to eat and not eat. B_starts. They're taking food out of my mouth.

Bottom line is you cannot allow any of these Nazi's to gain power. They were wiped out in World War II, and need to be wiped out again before we witness history repeat itself again.

Joe

NickD on Tue October 02, 2007 6:09 PM User is offline

Gee Joe, does this mean you are NOT going to buy a Prius? Those things are sure popping up around here, pointed one out to my wife with the comment, sure is an ugly looking thing. She said it looks kind of cute. I replied, not so sure about your taste in cars, but you sure have good taste in men, kissed her on the cheek and got a good smile out of her.

Wonder if I will see these things on the road when it's -30*F outside.

JJM on Wed October 03, 2007 6:06 PM User is offline

Well, Bohica doesn't see them where he is in the Las Vegas desert once the temps get up to 105F. I doubt you'll see many on the coldest of Wisconsin winter day either. I wonder what kind of fuel economy those things get under those extreme cold temperatures.

Joe

bohica2xo on Wed October 03, 2007 6:50 PM User is offline

The pre-ass (colon) does not get the advertised mileage either. I have heard mileage figures all the way down to the mid 20's - the local "green" cab co claims 30 mpg.

For comparison, I just ran to Pasadena Ca & back yesterday. I took my wife's 2007 Saturn Vue. 75+ mph on the cruise, 266 miles one way. It got an honest 28mpg round trip. The return trip is a net climb of 2200 feet, and usually burns a bit more fuel - in this case .503 gallons. The trip average was still above the window sticker mileage figure for highway driving. I hit 95+ mph in spots on the way home, dodging some truck traffic. Not too bad for an SUV, with seating for 4 real people. I can go to the airport, and pick up 3 people and their luggage - can't do that with a colon. Ran the A/C most of the trip as well.

B.

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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Thu October 04, 2007 8:33 AM User is offline

Shouldn't that be Pryass? Seems like you need more convincing to buy one, watch this and I am sure you will be convinced Pryass Commercial to buy one.

mhamilton on Fri October 05, 2007 12:57 PM User is offlineView users profile

Today in the parking lot, I walked by a VW Bug with "55 mpg" written on the back (looked like grease pencil). Seems to be just as small a vehicle as the Prius. Though I often question the intellect of VW owners, this one had written the mileage on the paint of the car.... not the rear window. All the VW drivers I see are either weaving in and out of traffic like the crotch rocket drivers, or they cut into the left lane and go 65 mph.

NickD on Fri October 05, 2007 7:06 PM User is offline

See the Honda Civic comes in a hybrid model with an EPA estimate of 40 city and 45 highway, not to be compared with previous EPA yearly estimates as they have a new procedure. On their site, they have how much money I can save over my 04 Cavalier in gas bills, but to make it look big it's over a 10 years period. Divide that by ten and for me only about 140 bucks per year, but with no mention, this car would cost about ten grand more initially plus interest if purchased with a loan.

Uses a 1.3 L 8 valve engine, that wasn't impressive to me as my 84 much larger Accord had a 12 valve 1.7 L engine and could easily do 0-60 in under ten seconds, but got around 35 in town and 45-46 mpg on the interstate. Hybrid really doesn't show that much improvement especially if it gets worse mileage with less room. Was glad to get rid of that 84 in a way, did use pre-combustion chambers, wonder why Honda quit using those, so the engine could be ran leaner on the highway with less engine loading, but it had well over a hundred vacuum lines with a vacuum controller that was a nightmare to work on. Took darn near an entire morning just to take off the air cleaner plus had to mark a ton of vacuum lines to make assembly easier. It was a two barrel carbed engine with all kinds of sensors in it, used different vacuum controls for each 500 rpm change in engine speed. Ha, took me two days to remove, clean, and rebuild the carburetor using an OE Honda kit with loose vacuum lines laying around everywhere. FI cars can't really be compared as Honda increased both the body and engine size, but nothing that would get over much more than 34 mpg after the 1984.

CorvairGeek on Fri October 05, 2007 8:02 PM User is offline

I saw that "55 MPG" here on something in Boise too. I wonder if there is some hidden meaning in this that we need a dirty hippy to interpret for us?

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Jerry

mhamilton on Fri October 05, 2007 9:05 PM User is offlineView users profile

LOL... perhaps, but most of the drivers of these new VW Bugs are young women, as far as the ones I see around here.

mhamilton on Fri October 05, 2007 9:09 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
See the Honda Civic comes in a hybrid model with an EPA estimate of 40 city and 45 highway, not to be compared with previous EPA yearly estimates as they have a new procedure.

Did they finally update their testing procedure from the 50 mph highway method? I have the pamphlet for my '80 Chevy that explains how the EPA did all the testing. Their city test was from 10-20 mph, and highway was steady 50 mph. Right... like anyone ever drove their car like that. 0 to 40 mph in 1st gear, and 70 mph in the 55 zones sounds more accurate.

Edited: Fri October 05, 2007 at 9:09 PM by mhamilton

NickD on Sat October 06, 2007 8:28 AM User is offline

Apparently the EPA is not using that 40 mile stretch between the south side of Chicago on the Dan Ryan to about 10 miles north of O'Hare on the Northwest Tollway in Chicago during the rush hour. Can take as long as five hours on a good weather day and if I reset the average mpg on my DeVille, lucky to see 3-5 mpg. Or the average town that is built on a state highway, one block wide and five miles long with a traffic light on every corner. Most of these lights are timed and you are sitting there for a minute waiting for it to change looking a half a block to the left and right and not seeing a single vehicle. State must have our over crowded prisons making speed limit signs, quit taking one of my favorite county roads as over one mile sections now have a 35 mph speed limit, just because there is a bar buried in the woods half way through. Maybe at 2:00 AM in the morning when the bars have to close, there are a couple of drunks pulling out to justify that speed limit, but the rest of the time, you don't even see a soul.

Wonder how hybrids will deal with the Dan Ryan during the rush hour that I hear last 24 hours a day now, understand they kill their engines when stopped, and that they will do every ten feet. If you leave even a half of a car length open ahead of you, hundreds of people behind you will blow their horns while another hundred will try and fill that empty space. Sometimes the traffic will hit 35-40 mph, but have to keep your right or left foot on top the of brake as without warning, comes to a very abrupt stop. The assist motor also acts as the starter and will be ran hundreds if not thousands of times, seems like the battery will be dead.

I only have to do this maybe 2-3 times per year, but millions are doing this on a daily basis, some toll booths in Chicago are backed up over a mile, heard the turnover rate is great for the operators getting a blast of exhaust in their tiny little booth once every ten seconds.

CorvairGeek on Sat October 06, 2007 1:12 PM User is offline

I used to travel to Great Lakes Naval Training center as a defense contractor with Lockheed Martin. It always amazed me that the Peoples Republic of Illinois was collecting a 40 cent toll every few miles for an interstate that was paid for by the federal government over 40 years ago.

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Jerry

NickD on Sat October 06, 2007 8:39 PM User is offline

Quote
Peoples Republic of Illinois was collecting a 40 cent toll every few miles

That 40 cents was increased to a buck last year, Peoples Republic of Illinois claimed 40 cent plus a half a buck per gallon of gas tax was not enough to fix all the pot holes in that tollway. That buck is only for something like a Geo Metro, pay a lot more if you have more than four wheels on the ground or pulling a trailer.

CorvairGeek on Sun October 07, 2007 12:59 AM User is offline

Yep, I haven't been there in a while. I thought 40 cents was too much.

Florida and Oklahoma got me for a tractor-trailer rate with my motorhome (3 axles) towing a car (2 axles = 5 total) on their turnpikes. Didn't seem right to me. Especially since my 3 axle motorhome weighs a lot less than a 2 axle diesel pusher coach.

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Jerry

NickD on Sun October 07, 2007 7:28 AM User is offline

Oh, not only the number of axles, but whether an axle has single or dual tires on it, pay more for the extra axle and even more is you have duals on it. Anyway like a church minister silent collection now, no change, all bucks.

Also claim this money was to rebuild the CTA that was torn down, used that a lot as a kid, needed four pennies to go to school, two to get there, two more to get home, the CTA was over a hundred years old even when I was a kid, but never heard about them going broke, kept on raising the fares and still said they were going broke, then finally tore most of it down. Now want to rebuild it when the energy crisis started, but claim they are still going broke. Hear that going broke all the time by local and state governments, was a home owner for over 45 years and services keep on going down, but somehow the taxes have gone up over a factor of twenty times. Either we were getting a hell of a bargain back then or getting screwed blue now, haven't figured that out, yet.

A major bridge was closed down in Wausau, inspected due to that failure in St. Paul, only difference is the one in St. Paul was 40 years old, the one in Wausau is only two years old, somebody forgot to add the cement to the gravel and sand and all of it is crumbling apart. Or did they forget?

mk378 on Tue October 09, 2007 11:39 PM User is offline

I found cans of "fix a flat" in the store today that are a new non-flammable formula. The old ones used propane as the gas to inflate the tire, potentially dangerous to whoever works on the tire later.

The new formula is R134a. It's a handy dual use product, as when charged into an A/C system it should serve as the mother of all stop-leaks.

NickD on Wed October 10, 2007 7:09 AM User is offline

Interesting, do you get zero psi at subzero temperatures and a zillion psi on a hot summer day with R-134a in your tires?

I only used a can of that tire fixer once many moons ago, my tire guy said it made one hell of a mess, never used it again.

webbch on Fri November 02, 2007 12:44 PM User is offlineView users profile

I used to *hate* that fix-a-flat stuff in tires when I worked at a tire shop. Hated it, and hated it, and hated it.

Then I bought a lawn tractor and mowed my lawn in AZ (only a few times a year of course during monsoon season), with all the nasty burrs. Every time I mowed, I got flat tires. After getting tired of fixing flats every time I needed to mow, I put in that fix-a-flat and ne'er again have I had a flat.

So while I hate cleaning it out, I see *some* cases where it shines.

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