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Nick: Water Heater? Pages: 12

bohica2xo on Tue November 06, 2007 2:01 PM User is offline

Nick:

More than a year ago, you were installing a Tankless Electric water heater (I think it was a Bosch Unit).

Can you tell me how that worked out over time? Was it really better than a tank type electric?


Thanks

B.

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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Tue November 06, 2007 4:42 PM User is offline

LOL, Bohica, it's still brand new and in the box. Looked around town for 35 ampere double circuit breakers, nobody has them, found them on the net, but didn't like the shipping charges. Thought about adding a second box, but can't find the space, and to make matters worse, our electric rates doubled over the last year. So still using the natural gas unit

Did find expansion tanks and check valves finally in town that should make my natural gas more efficient, not only heating my water, but the cities as well. Turning out to be one of those affairs where no need to fix the roof, it ain't raining kind of thing. Thought a tankless would be new to my wife, when I was in her condo in Venezuela, she was using one for the last twenty years. Just paid my electric bill, with her daughter gone now, usage did drop, but still almost twice as much as last year. When is this going to end? See gas jumped up 25 cents a gallon this week.

Did look at geothermal, wondering if I want to spend over $10,000.00, do a lot of work, to maybe save a couple of bucks. I need inspiration on this subject. In our town, it is illegal to put in a PVC chimney fan forced high efficiency water heater in the basement, but okay to install essentially the same kind of furnace. Claim the snow will block the hot water heater, I asked, why not the furnace, never did get an answer, but those are the rules. Our airport manager told me our building inspector is an AH, I didn't argue that, but come to think about it, just about any town I lived in the building inspector was an AH.

Growing up as a kid, we never lived in a house that had hot water until I was 17 years old, seemed normal, may have to go back to that.

bohica2xo on Tue November 06, 2007 5:42 PM User is offline

Nick:

I am surprised, you are the sort that usually follows through...

I have a vacation house that has electric water heat. I shut the unit down when I leave, since it may sit for a couple of weeks. Just thinking the Tankless might be a better choice when the time to replace the unit comes.

I shut the well pump down too, so I don't get any surprises while I am gone. I could install propane, and add a gas heater, but right now the power is only.07 / kwh.


B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Tue November 06, 2007 7:30 PM User is offline

Our electric rates jumped from 4.5 to 9.2 cents a KWH, know that 9.2 cents is not as bad as other areas of the country, just taking awhile to get use to it.

Ha, with six kids of my own, two step kids, and ten grandkids, all looking to me for help. Two of my sons are building new homes this year and need dad's help. They all have computer, appliance, electronic, and car problems, again, good old dad. After being married for over three years now, wife and I finally got a week off to take our honeymoon. She does like to go places on the weekends, have been doing a lot of that plus the motorhome problems. Think I am crazy for even thinking about buying a boat. Did get the Supra running and back in the main garage, but haven't even started on the timing belt yet. Redoing one of my daughters computers right now, wife is on call. Froze my butt off earlier today, REILS at the airport went out and waiting for a chip for one of the monitors.

Back in physical therapy, again, smashed my left knee and rehurt my neck, wife and I spend Saturday raking leaves, not sure why, high winds blew all the neighbors leaves back in our yard. Always something, did lay 480 sq ft of flooring, new window dressings and painted the entire downstairs, wife is asking my about upstairs, well, did get the stairway done and added oak baseboard to the stairs, cheap running the carpet into the drywall, but that is how they build them today.

Was given a non-working Singer communications system monitor, spent last week on that, working now, what a piece of equipment, can monitor any radio AM, FM, TV station, know precisely what frequency they are operating at and the percentage of modulation including WWV. But that sat in my lab for six months until I finally got around to it. And I did wash my house, yep, always something.

NickD on Tue November 06, 2007 8:03 PM User is offline

Forgot to mention, Menards in town sells Ondura roofing and a home behind me had it installed. Looks different, even looks nice, thanks for the tip.

iceman2555 on Wed November 07, 2007 7:37 AM User is offlineView users profile

We installed a tankless hotwater heater 2 years ago, one at my in-laws and one at our home. Other than the extra wiring needed for electrical service, these things are great. Can not say that a large difference in the electrical bill has occurred...but talk about unlimited hot water...almost as good as a the unlimited amount of hot water available in hotels.
The greatest change in our water heating cost was when the kids moved out.....my son seemed to think it was his life's calling to test the output of the water heater with each opening of the shower door. That being said, I like the new unit...once the pipes are cleared of ambient temp water...the supply seems to be endless.
Saw an advertisement for a much smaller type heater that attaches to the water inlet at the faucet level. Uses 110 volt supply...this unit supplies instant hot water at the location..thus prevented the water wasting aspect of clearing ambient temp water. Once hot water reaches the unit...it shuts down. No soldering is necessary....standard pipe threads...maybe an interesting addition. Water is becoming such a valued aspect of everyday life....and seems to be getting in short supply, esp here in the overgrown area of south FL.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

bohica2xo on Wed November 07, 2007 10:04 AM User is offline

Nick:

You are welcome. The Ondura looks good installed, my sister was hesitant when she first saw a raw sheet. The material cost was about 3 bucks more per square than 30 year 3 tab stuff - with no tear-off on the old roof it was actually much cheaper.


Iceman:

I have point-of-use electric heaters in my house - the water heater is a long way from some faucets... Installing one right at the inlet to the dishwasher really makes a difference! The small heaters made a big difference in my water usage and here in the desert they really beat us up on out water use.

Interesting that the tankless did not make a big difference on your power bill. If that is the case, I will stick with the tank type unit since we never run out of capacity anyway.


B.


-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Wed November 07, 2007 11:29 AM User is offline

That's what I need, a good inspiration talk. Yep, the old natural gas is running 24/7, constantly cycles on or off whether hot water is used or not, same vent that heats it let's cool air flow up out the chimney that cools it to start the cycle all over again. And this bit is never mentioned in the energy efficient specifications.

To complicate matters, have a fireplace on the west wall where the furnace and hot water heater share a common stack with the vast majority of my plumbing on the east side of the house, hot water pipe has a 50 foot run before it even gets close to a faucet. I already picked out a spot for the tankless, not quite so far away. Years ago when my first tank bit the dust, installed two shut off valves so I wouldn't have to kill the entire house water just to change the tank. Was planning on just leaving it there, never know, natural gas may go down to 9 cents a therm.

So what I have to do is to get two more valves, tap in the hot and cold water lines, 3/4" copper, solder that up with the house water off and drained, then can take my time with the rest of the plumbing to the tankless, and we should get hot water in a few seconds rather than waiting a half a day. Copper is getting expensive, but see in my kid's new homes, they are routing plastic garden hose all over the place. Installed the kitchen sink in my one son's home, he didn't like the crap the builder was supplying, I had to remember to bring my utility knife, didn't even need a pair of pliers, the fitting has wings on them and if you tighten them too much, the wings would break off. My favorite O'rings were used for the seal. Did I tell you that I love O'rings? I did bring along a tube of silicone glue to coat the O'ring so it would last a week longer, and a 3" tubing cutter for the drain plastic, kind of hard to cut that with a utility knife.

Gosh, it takes quite an investment in tools to become a plumber today! Yeah, I got a right angle drill for tight places, what else do I need?

My tankless has three stages dependent on demand. Each stage pulls about 30 amperes at 240 VAC for about 7KW, I have room for six more slots in my breaker box, is 200 amperes, don't get anywhere near that. I have room for six more? What was I thinking, just checked, can buy three doubles for seven bucks apiece, some ten gauge UF and get started. Hmmm, may need a hammer for the UF staples, also takes a lot of money to become an electrician today.

Karl Hofmann on Fri November 09, 2007 4:14 PM User is offlineView users profile

Ha Nick, get used to plastic, its here to stay..

Always make a point of ensuring that the only joints in the plastic are where you can get at them, with rolls of 100Metre there should be no excuse for putting a connection under the floor boards. Just laid 6 Kilometers of plastic pipe in my buddies floor for under floor heating, not a single joint where it cant be got at. Connected it all up to a Bosch Worcester Greenstar 40Kw oil fired boiler. The house is unusually large for the UK as it also incorperates his offices in a separate wing and has 3 bathrooms and two ensuites so the hot water system is fed via a Megaflow 300 litre unvented tank which can be heated either electrically, off the boiler or from the roof mounted solar panels. because the hot water pipe run is unacceptably long, we incorperated an insulated, pumped hot water loop so that each tap is no more than one metre from the supply of hot water.

The nice thing about underfloor heating is that the return water to the boiler is cool enough to ensure that the boiler is condensing for as much of the time as possible, thus running as efficiently as possible.

Just had a quick glance through my Plumb Centre Catalogue at the electric boilers and the largest ones that are commonly available here are 12Kw and are used for heating storage tanks and apartment wet heating systems, 21Kw is a bit of a beasty. Our domestic supplies are normally 100Amps so a little large for our supplies.. What sort of water flow would you get from that electric heater? I would guess about 9 litres a minute for a delta T of 50C

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

NickD on Fri November 09, 2007 7:06 PM User is offline

When I built my own home back in 1970, had access to everything, in this place, if I have problems with the bath tub drains, will require a sledge hammer to break down the walls to gain access. Tankless is going in an unfinished basement area, but it's strictly against code to splice any wires, unless it is done in an accessible box. For what good that is, the UF is stapled to the studs, still have to knock down walls.

My 70 home used copper and cast iron drain pipes, but UF was legal then, house before that used the same copper plumbing and cast iron drain pipes, but used metallic conduit for all the wiring, there you could pull a new wire if you had too. House before that had all that, but used galvanized pipe that had to be threaded and cranked in with a pipe wrench, there plumbing was very time consuming, had to use a lot of unions to preassemble a section as you would never get a pipe wrench in there.

Still have my conduit bender, got old fashion and did my garage that way, airport work requires conduit, but okay to use that gray plastic stuff.

What amazes me, is that homes so were cheap back then, but required lots of labor, those first two homes I had used all 3/4" oak floors, the real stuff that had to be sanded and varnished, and that stuff could be sanded many many times. Today to install real oak, looking at least at a half a million buck home. Almost purchased a home that had a 20 by 20 foot library all in black walnut, owner changed his mind at the last minute, built in the 30's when black walnut was dirt cheap.

The tankless I have is suppose to output 55*F water at 130*F at seven gallons per minute, don't know anything about that litre stuff, LOL. Have decent shower heads that are restricted to 2 gpm, wife likes 95*F, so should only use about 1 gpm of hot water.

graeme on Sat November 10, 2007 3:29 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: NickD

The tankless I have is suppose to output 55*F water at 130*F at seven gallons per minute, don't know anything about that litre stuff, LOL. Have decent shower heads that are restricted to 2 gpm, wife likes 95*F, so should only use about 1 gpm of hot water.

My calculations show it would need to be about 77kW, 320A required at 240V
=(130-55)5/9 x 7 x 3.78 x 4180/60

Karl Hofmann on Sat November 10, 2007 4:17 AM User is offlineView users profile

Nick, that would seem to be a little optimistic.. I would only expect about 10litres (2.19 UK Gallons) a minute from a 24Kw gas boiler running at 91% efficient..IE the quantity of energy in the gas transfered to water.

Are you sure that Bosch have translated their specs right? 7 litres is a lot closer to the mark than 7 Gallons.

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

Edited: Sat November 10, 2007 at 4:22 AM by Karl Hofmann

NickD on Sat November 10, 2007 7:32 AM User is offline

Hmmm, wonder if I am brainwashed by all these new advertisements where an electric pencil sharpener operated off a single AAA battery develops 50,0000 HP? Took me awhile to find where I left the box, but on the side it says, a 45*F rise outputs 4 gm, and an 80*F rise outputs 2 gpm with numbers in between.

Now this has me wondering if someone is taking a shower, would they get cooked if someone else turns off another faucet? I haven't really read the manual yet, but recall the three thermostats that progressively turn on each heater, recall it being a very well made unit. Maybe I should bench test it first.

The one in my wife's condo did a pretty good job, but didn't realize she was so frugal by turning it off each night, unless she wanted me to take a cold shower, LOL. Her gas bill is only like 50 cents a month in Venezuela. Some things we take for granted here like defecating in perfectly drinkable water that is perfectly pure. Her son had better things to do than to keep her condo clean, all plumbing fixtures were stained with their water, and you dare not drink it before using a special electric filter only by the kitchen sink. Never saw one of those before. So we spent the day cleaning things up, but told her, we are just here to visit, not to clean, LOL.

Their electrical was a combination of Japanese, European, and USA, I converted several outlets to USA for the stuff we brought down plus a power inverter so the laptop we brought down wouldn't fry on him. Use to paying 39 cents for a Leviton receptacle, should have brought those with me too, costs six bucks each down there. Chevaz is taking his cut. All the utilities are now state owned including the TV stations, internet, phone companies, electrical, water, natural gas, and refineries, and Chevaz is putting his nontechnical buddies in charge that don't know much about complicated machinery like wheelbarrows and screwdrivers, so it's a mess. It's a shame, such a beautiful country not subject to the hurricanes and heat that the north side of the gulf experiences. Anyway, don't drink the water.

bohica2xo on Sat November 10, 2007 11:41 AM User is offline

I guess I will just stick with a tank type - beter the devil you know.

I have used the Marathon units before with good results. They claim a .94 energy factor for an electric unit, and are fairly well insulated. A 40 gallon 4.8 Kw unit should be good enough for two people, and will not require a new 120a circuit.

Karl:
100a mains seems a bit light for domestic service, even though all of your loads are 240v. My 900 square foot cabin has 200a service. There is a 400a panel here, but that is normal when you have two 5 Ton A/C units on the roof...


B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

JJM on Sat November 10, 2007 2:06 PM User is offline

They're all garbage...

Everyone I know who has one curses the day they pulled out their hot water heaters and boilers, though they're ideal for those who enjoy frequent cold showers, because that's what you'll often get.

These units are expensive, complicated, even more expensive to repair, lose efficiency in short order (due to rapid internal scaling of the coils), and often do not live up to the claims of "endless" hot water unless they're so oversized that any efficiency gains are tossed out the window. I also don't like the idea of the chessy plastic venting. A real chimney is the way to go.

The best way to make hot water is an oil fired boiler with a tankless coil and buffer tank, period. (And for all you environmental loonies, oil fired equipment will eventually be able to burn bio-fuels.) True, this might not be the most efficient set-up, but there's plenty of truly endless hot water on demand and that's what's most important. I have this set-up, and can wash the cars in the middle of winter at full blast with an endless supply of steaming hot water... neighbors think I'm nuts when they see me out there. Also have hot water piped outside with this hose bib:



Second best way is with an oil fired or gas hot water heater. Third would be a boiler (gas or oil) with indirect. Running out of hot water though is always a possibility with a tank.

Any other way to make hot water I just can't see.

A tankless is only good for someone like Nick, who can easily repair those high failure $500-$600 control boards in less than an hour with around $5 or $10 worth of parts. For the rest of us, we're screwed.

I too am surprised on Nick's lack of follow through on this one. But it just goes to show you these things suck... a 35A circuit breaker??? Why not a 40A or 30A?

Electric heating of anything is also the least efficient... make and lose heat on one end, send over wires with more losses, then make and lose heat on other end.

Joe

Karl Hofmann on Sat November 10, 2007 3:03 PM User is offlineView users profile

We tend only to use electric boilers where there is no gas supply and where oil or LPG is problematical such as where barns are converted in to fancy one bedroom apartments.. 12 Kw is enough to heat and supply water but these are a last resort.. 3 or 4 bedroom houses tend to have one main bathroom, a downstairs cloak and one ensuite so a gas fired Combination boiler is generally the most suitable solution (supplies water for the wet central heating and domestic hot water which is heated instantly. My 30Kw Bosch Worcester Greenstar 30Si supplies me with 12.5 Litres a minute which is adequate for my three bedroom, one bathroom house. The output varies itself from 7.2Kw up to 30Kw depending on need.

100Amps seems to be sufficient for most domestic applications bearing in mind that aircon ir rare and even then we tend to use mini splits to cool a room rather than central ac. our consumer units are normally broken up in two 6 amp lighting rings, two 32 amp ringmains, 16amp for the immersion heater 32 amp for the cooker and 16 amp for the garage.. More than 100 Amps but we also apply the rule of diversity. not all of these circuits will be running at 100% capacity at the same time.. I've never seen a suppliers fuse blown due to overloading, so I guess it works.. Always found our electricity regulations to be way overcautious when it comes to cable sizing and circuit design.. Sadly the 17th edition of the wiring regulations is about to be introduced which tends to harmonise our wiring regs closer to europes which means far more radial circuits and the end of the ring main which has proven to be a very reliable and foolproof means of distribution round the house, far more tolerant of ham fisted DIYers than any radial

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

bohica2xo on Sat November 10, 2007 6:45 PM User is offline

Joe:

The cabin is @ 4200 ft elevation, and on the end of the power pole run - the last pole is on the corner of the property.

I did not build it, but I am guessing that the "all electric" construction was simple. I could run propane, but it would require a tank & resupply service. While occupied it is easily heated with the woodstove. A decent fire will keep the place comfortable, and when unoccupied the electric space heating (I know, I know) keeps things from freezing in the winters. The cost of the electric "freeze-proofing" is about 30 bucks per month for dec.-jan.-feb. this includes the refrigerator that stays on.

I have used the Marathon heaters for process water, and they seem to be all they claim. The 6% loss through the tank assembly is mostly the supply lines, since the tank itself is plastic, with a fiberglass wound outer shell & foam insulation over that. Lifetime household warranty on the tank.


Karl:

I always thought the wattage available at the standard UK outlet was interesting. In the US, 1800 watts is standard, at 120 volts. I wish we could get 3 phase power in residential - I hate single phase motors. I personally like to see a center tap grounded delta - it keeps the "ham fisted DIYers" out of the panel... For residential I would settle for center tap grounded open delta service, since the 3 phase motor loads are smaller.

3 bedrooms and only ONE bathroom? Not likely in the US. There are three full baths in this house, and 3 bedrooms. Even my little cabin has two baths. I am not sold on the heated floors, but heating is rarely an issue here in Las Vegas. Some of the newer homes are real energy pigs - "Towel Warmers" in the master bath - with additional A/C to keep from fogging the mirrors... I am sure al gore has similar crap in his castles.

I noticed that the UK relies on a lot of electric power for things like the trains. How is all of this power generated?

It looks like most trades in the UK are heavily regulated - are painters required to demonstrate skill for a license?

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Sat November 10, 2007 7:14 PM User is offline

Okay, Okay, I got the message, look before you type. The unit I have is made by Controlled Energy Corp, made in the state of Vermont, under the brand name of PowerStar and the model number is AE125. Does require 40 ampere circuit breakers and 8 AWG wire and claims to be 94.6& efficient and better than that since it is only drawing current when hot water is running. Does have an electronic board, I took it out and looked at it, every component I recognized and is generic, except one, what appears to be a 28 pin microcontroller, so if that goes, I am dead. Parts list will sell the entire PCB, but no listing for that controller. The heaters are controlled by Triacs using some unrecognizable to me thermistors, does have a thermostat on it to adjust the outlet water temperature between 90-130*F so should with all that electronics, keep it fairly constant, provided you don't exceed it's water heating capacity.

Would post a picture of it, but my year old HP blew a WD hard drive and the only way I can download pictures now from my camera. Never will buy an WD hard drive again, but got a Seagate this time, those seem to last forever. I can't repair HD's, they epoxied those together and break before you can take the screws out.

I do not have water scaling problems, city water is filtered and have a water softener to get rid of the rest of the stuff. I do like PVC chimneys because you don't have as many bucks going up a conventional chimney. Especially the kind where air only flows when a small fan kicks on.

The reason I have the tankless, just happened to be in a building supply store when I got this thing for 55% off the sale price, only paid about $290.00 for it. Ha, with me always a reason. It was brand new and in a sealed box. My first thought was just to add it in series with my existing tank, cut that back to around 100*F and just use this to shorten the time it takes to get hot water. But I have been living with that for 22 years now, LOL. If it works well, could just cut the water to the tank with a bypass and use the tankless, and also have a bypass in the tankless as well. DIY plumbing is very cheap, but will spend a couple extra bucks to stick with all copper, just need about a ten foot section of 3/4".

I don't think I could live with 100 ampere service, already have 31 breakers in my box, with the tankless, will bring that up to 36, yeah, and every breaker is marked, but I only use about 900 KWH per month, but when I need it, it's there.

The PowerStar only weighs 22 pounds and can easily fit in my trash can, that's one disadvantage of a tank, getting rid of the darn thing. When my last one went, city wanted 30 bucks, plus I had to haul it there, the wrecking yard did take it for free. But that is before they heard the city was charging 30 bucks, so they are also charging 30 bucks.

But I did get a steel cut off saw that works great and quit, so if my tank goes, will be cut up in piece small enough to fit in the trash can and taken for free. Well not exactly for free, trash pickup is a big part of my property tax bill. I did get up my old electric range and dishwasher, plus a microwave, took all but about ten minutes each and got rid of it piece by piece.

Ha, just got an e-mail from HP, just for 30 bucks and shipping they will take my old monitor if I pack it the way they want me to. If I do, I will help HP reach their two billion pound mark for recycled computer garbage by 2010. Well screw you, HP, if you start making stuff the way you use to, wouldn't have to recycle it.

mhamilton on Sat November 10, 2007 7:34 PM User is offlineView users profile

One thing I have noticed with electric water heaters is that the water quality is an issue. My house is in a rural area, sounds much like your cabin, B., where propane delivery is an option but electric is easier. Anyway, I have two 30 gallon electric heaters in series. The water is supplied by a well that goes down into an underground spring. Very soft water, but a lot of minerals. Every year or so I will find my hot water supply running out. I find that one or more of the heating elements in the tanks have been eroded right back to the tank wall. And, I find the bottom 1/4 of the tanks filled with white flakes. Recently been getting better about yearly flushes, but really need to get a filter on the inlet.

Some of the houses here in the States are shameful energy uses. Sorry to say I'm guilty of that as well... have two 200 amp panels, one 100 amp panel. But, I run primarily electric appliances. So the oven, stove, dryer, well pump, water heaters, two a/c units, and upstairs heat pump are all 220v units. Do get propane for the downstairs furnace, but that's it.

Nick, I have the plastic plumbing and have had no leaks, but the PVC drain pipes are junk. Hate the noise they make, even within insulated walls. Really miss my cast iron drains. Speaking of copper, my aunt recently bought a house built in the '70s, and I found all copper drain lines in the basement. Told her she could retire on the scrap value there

Edited: Sat November 10, 2007 at 7:36 PM by mhamilton

NickD on Sat November 10, 2007 11:56 PM User is offline

Nothing like building your own home, I added insulation to all the bedroom and bathroom rooms, makes a big difference. Did start drawing plans for a new home, but think I am getting too old for that kind of work. They make these plastic clamps for plastic drain pipes that kills the noise, but professional plumbers never use enough of them, kind of have to take over where they left off. After all, you have to live there, they don't.

Water can be treated for a number of problems, when I had a well, added a rust and dirt filter, a neutralizer, and a softener, if you use one inch pipe, not much of a pressure drop with all this added stuff. Here I had my water tested, added a chlorine filter and softener. http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php sold me top quality stuff with there recommendations after I send them a sheet of my water analysis, shipping was free, and everything worked out great, plus their prices were 60% than in town. Very pleased.

Lot's of work to own a home, wife suggests a condo, no way, just ten steps from the trunk of the car to the kitchen counter. And if you don't like your neighbors, just put up a fence.

Karl Hofmann on Sun November 11, 2007 4:33 AM User is offlineView users profile

Bohica,

Yep, they are screwing down on the tradesmen to be certified and regulated, I recently sat my electrical inspectors and testers exams, sat alongside some guys who knew the job inside out, yet now they have to prove that they are up to the job. All of these exams and the increased documentation have pushed the price up for electrical work so the question is is the home owner going to pay the extra or are they going to get a fly by night who will do it for a fraction of the price? Increased regulation is in theory a good thing, seen many DIY disasters but I suggest that the new regs will only squeeze the good tradesmen out..

Suppose I could turn my office in to a bathroom but since my office is one of the bedrooms I'd have a two bed two bath house for one of me. My house was built in the twenties when an upstairs bathroom was seen as an absolute luxury, as you know, space is at a premium here in the UK and even my little place was valued at £165K I'd really hate to be a young first time buyer these days, nothing round here, even in the less desirable areas for less than 100K.

I think that our electrical three pin plugs are unique in so far as each appliance has its own fuse fitted in to the plug.. up to a maximum of 13amps, so we can run portable kit up to 3Kw but the cartrige fuses come in 1 amp, 3 amps, 5amps and 13 amps to suit the appliance and its supply cord

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

NickD on Sun November 11, 2007 6:56 AM User is offline

We are beginning to see fuses in the plugs here too, some kind of liability thing. The U-ground plug has been around for years with a minor contradiction, for 120 VAC applications, no current is permitted to flow in the U-ground pin, but in 240 volt application, lots of current flows through the ground pin like in an electric range or dryer. Only the heater element runs off 240, the rest of the control stuff and the motor runs off 120 VAC. The more recent polarized plug, a two pronger drives me nuts in trying to plug in a lamp behind a piece of furniture in a dark corner, if anyone is dumb enough to stick their finger in a lamp socket, they are going to get a tingle regardless of which way it's plugged in.

And like I said before, the act of grounding is what makes electricity dangerous, when working on any electrical device, plug that into an isolation transformer first whose only function is to break that ground circuit, can touch anything even with wet feet without get a shock. The solution for the ground is the GFI or ground fault interrupter that trips if the current difference between the two conductors is less than a milliampere that adds about eight bucks to the cost of a receptacle or thirty bucks to a panel circuit breaker. Adds resistance to the circuit with a complicated circuit for more things to go wrong. The solution for working with U-ground, polarized, and standard two prong plugs is to buy adapters, and with corrosion, another element of problems. Neural and ground wires attach to the same bus in the fuse/circuit breaker panel adding hundreds of feet of worthless wire, but it's the code. And grounded electronic equipment is subject to ground loops that causes a lot of interference when these devices are connected together.

50/60Hz is way outdated, motors, transformers, and filter circuits could be made half the size of that frequency were doubled, that's why aircraft uses 400 Hz. Wouldn't mind working an office with synchronized motor clocks with the frequency doubled, could do an eight hour work day in four hours, LOL.

Receptacle and junction boxes are all plastic now, guess to mate with the plastic wire, ground wire is bare and has to be connected to each ground wire with bare wire running all over the place where with the metal, all the ground could be neatly wrapped around a ground screw, way in the back and out of the way. I like using stranded wire where I solder dip the ends and wrap those around the screw terminals and solder and tape those to the feeds, makes for a much cleaner installation and don't have to fight with single stranded wire trying to jam everything in the box, also hate wire nuts, that bare wire corrodes and many pros like to use the push in connectors where a tiny piece of bronze is suppose to make contact. But all this takes extra time to do it right, but doing it right saves lots of problems, talking about years here in a home as opposed to a throwaway appliance.

Ah these new homes, plastic plumbing, wiring, windows, floors, moldings, doors, and siding with the rest made out of particle board, even the floor joists made of sawdust glued to together, but they call those engineered joists, and with 30 year long mortgages where you pay four times as much as the purchase price in interest, dang things fall apart well before that last payment.

bohica2xo on Sun November 11, 2007 12:09 PM User is offline

Karl:

The avaliability of fused plugs is nice, as is 240 volts & 3Kw - wish we had it here. That plug is sort of bulky though, and I suspect it is not cheap to manufacture. I was impressed by the fact that the live pins are insulated at the shank - no way to wrap your fingers around & get a shock while connecting.

I also noticed that there were many switched outlets in London. Is that some sort of city electrical code to have a local disconnect? I did not see any switched stuff in Chichester...

The festooning of cables along railway routes is not done here - I was surprised to see all of that power cable in the open and within reach.


Nick:

The fast vs good electrical connection issue has affected even the commercial electrical installations. I have found many breakers & load centers that need to be re-torqued in commercial buildings. I have found screws that were never tightened on main feeds to panels more than once. Big differences phase to phase / phase to ground when things should be the same... loose screws on breakers also common - the breaker is 15 degrees hotter than the one next to it. Just no pride in workmanship anymore.

I am seeing an interesting thing happen with regard to the "bonded neutral" as well recently. Copper thefts are huge around here, and ground wires keep dissapearing. The grounding wires on the building my shop is in are all gone - clipped off at the boxs, removed from the ground rods. One of the reasons I rent that place is a common meter for six businesses - so power is cheap (they take advantage of the "large user" rates & prepay). Now with all of the leaky 115v crap plugged in all over this little network, and whatever else is going on... the "neutral" voltage above ground is drifting up. Right now, there is enough power available neutral to actual ground to run a few LED's with a rectifier...
I drove a new ground rod inside, and run a seperate actual ground on all of my stuff - most of it is 3 phase anyway.


-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Mon November 12, 2007 6:13 AM User is offline

Quote
loose screws on breakers also common - the breaker is 15 degrees hotter than the one next to it.

What???? Don't you have an electrical inspector? Ha, maybe you have the same guy we have. I don't install new electrical equipment at the airports, for one thing, would have to use a hand shovel to bury a line over a mile long, that goes to the lowest bidder. It's my job to align and to get the equipment working and the worse job they do, the more money I make. Strange way to make a couple of bucks, but this year, the airport committee paid me to stand around and watch and supervise several installations, that went well. But they didn't call me on the job I am working on now, a monitor, was called out and told them a cable had a short circuit in it, the guy doing the work insisted the monitor was bad, so he took it apart and tightened all the loose alignment screws in it, that had to be completely aligned and I guess, I will have to repair that cable. But I am put in the bad position to report what I find to justify my time. But the bottom line is the stuff has to work, work for a long time, and pass the FAA inspections, no getting around that.

My two youngest sons have friends that are doing very well fixing MS problems, started off with two guys, now expanded to over four cities, they are after my boys to join them, one would rather teach English in the Japan, the other sell insurance. But if MS did a half decent job, this whole operation would fold up, Vista is very good for their business, should find out exactly what they do.

bohica2xo on Mon November 12, 2007 12:49 PM User is offline

Nick:

We have electrical inspectors here... they are morons.

I went out to a new business that had just taken delivery on a pair of machining centers. 23,000 pound machines, installed on the floor. The electricians had installed a sub panel adjacent to the two machines, and had run conduit straight into the enclosure on each machine. 100 amp 3phase 208v. The inspector made them tear it out, and install five feet of flexible conduit from the machine to the end of the rigid conduit - "because the machine might move".

After the install was approved, they had issues. Odd power problems. The new sub panel was properly done, but odd things happened to other parts of the building when you started the main spindle motors... Out to the main panel. Bolt down brakers, all feeding sub panels. Several of them were hot compared to others. Not a single one was torqued to specification! Next stop, sub panel A. Six breakers in the whole panel - a half turn on each screw. Sub B, feeding the office. The conduit feeding the panel is warm enough the keep your coffee drinkable. Two turns on phase C's lug screw. Half a turn on the others. Every breaker tightened like it was a watch screw - about a half turn on each one. Checked sub B the next day - room temp. Load balance for the building took another trip. All of the original work "looked" great. The inspection was purely visiual...

The structural inspectors are a bit sharper. I have seen one of them measure a nail head in a joist hanger to be sure the right size was used. Checked every hanger for a full set of nails as well. Wrote up every bit of spalled concrete from the dummies with the ramsets. My kind of inspector.


B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

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