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Auminum Electrical Wire And Alternators And Audio, And.... Pages: 12

NickD on Thu December 06, 2007 11:08 AM User is offline

In fooling around with my circuit breaker box, noticed the 40 amp cable to the central AC and the 40 amp to the electric range unit was aluminum, rest is copper. E32071 CDRS 6AWG, two conductor with ground in a gray plastic cable, and why not? Back then, was another phoney copper shortage with super high inflated prices.

So I checked all over town, nobody has it, checked the web, same thing, we do have a wholesaler in town that only deals with electrical contractors, he only has the 2 AWG for service entry, just a tad bit too fat for my application. Nothing wrong with aluminum as long as it's properly terminated with serrated connectors. Had to convert all of our transformers to aluminum back then when the copper prices increased by a factor of 12, either that, or go out of business. Seems like that is all we are doing nowadays, not making progress, but just trying to survive.

Yeah, I got plenty of zeros on my credit card, could just break down and buy copper, but my purpose with this tankless is to save a couple of bucks, least try rather than make some crooks rich. Think I will park this project and see what happens.

Wife would like me to decorate the exterior of our house, but with 15" of snow followed by a wet rain that is frozen, would need an ice pick before attaching those clips. Could plug in a single candle with a light bulb on it into an outdoor outlet, after all, it's the thought that counts, right?


Edited: Wed December 12, 2007 at 9:06 PM by NickD

bohica2xo on Thu December 06, 2007 5:30 PM User is offline

Nick:

I never had a problem with AL wire, as long as it is installed properly. That means AL rated devices, anti-oxidant goo, and a re-torque of all lugs @ 30 days.

Actually, ANY panel should be re-torqued occasionally. Aluminum is just more sensitive to the issue.

We had a fire here this week that was the result of corner-cutting & AL wire in a '70's construction. High density housing, and they cut every other corner too - it had a common attic! My neighbor cleans carpet for a living, and he noted that his floor blowers made the wall plugs very hot with an 8 amp load when he cleaned in that place. He said he had had plugs damaged in some for the units... The fire was caused by an "overloaded outlet". An 1800 watt space heater should not be an "overload" on a duplex outlet. Aluminum wire - crap workmanship is how it got a bad name.


While I have your attention, I have a Delco alternator question.
Did you do any work on the post SI stuff?
I have run into an interesting mess with the Delco AD244. In addition to the processor built into the voltage regulator, the PCM controls the alternator as well. It sends a 10.4v signal to the regulator for turn on, and monitors the alternator load via a PWM 8.4v signal coming from the regulator.

The issue is low battery voltage. It seems that GM has adoped a strategy of reducing the charge rate significantly once the battery is 80% charged. I actually have that statement in print from GM. The vehicle in question is an H2 Hummer with a custom sound system - and 3 batteries installed to support it. 3ea 105 amp/hour PC2150's in fact. After hours of driving, they are usually 12.5v resting. The only way he sees the battery mfg. rec. voltage is overnight charging from the grid. GM has thoughtfully adjusted the gauge in the dash to read about 1.2v above actual voltage at the battery.

There is an "S" terminal in the regulator, but unlike a CS144 if you feed the S terminal 11v nothing happens to the charge rate...

Any suggestions?

B

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

Edited: Thu December 06, 2007 at 5:31 PM by bohica2xo

NickD on Thu December 06, 2007 8:31 PM User is offline

Copper must be expensive in Colombia as well, wife's sister has a farm 6 hours north of Bogota with 330 meters of copper between the road and their home, someone swiped that wire. Is a diary farm, the cows were moaning.

That AD244 sounds like a Ford unit, microcontroller does have an A to D converter and trying to get more mileage out of it by sensing B+ and sending a digital code to the voltage regulator via a single data link, decoding it and using that to control the field transistor PWM. Thought that was pretty poor and also problems for Ford, but most have been errors in the flashram, another brilliant idea. I just don't see the cost savings and was a delay causing spikes. I wasn't involved with the AD244, but could contact some friends for information. My suggestion is to get your friends vehicle reflashed for a start, provided the alternator isn't full fielding.

bohica2xo on Fri December 07, 2007 3:56 AM User is offline

Nick:

If you are shopping for aluminum wire, the mobile home industry uses an aluminum underground feeder rated for direct burial. Other underground feeders available in aluminum are RHH, RHW-2, and USE-2 Mobile home feeder is available from #2 AWG to 4/0 AWG, three conductor plus ground.


The AD244 does all of the nonsense on the built in regulator board. The only thing the PCM can do is shut it down if the voltage goes over the 19 volt mark. The PCM uses the PWM signal from the alternator to make idle speed adjustments to the drive by wire throttle. All of the charging level decisions happen inside the alternator...

Older units like the CS144 have the same 4 pin connector on the regulator. The regulator in the AD244 has 4 pins installed, but the plug from the harness has only two wires.

On the older CS144 style, the "S" terminal in the regulator was used to provide a battery reference voltage. By connecting a diode in series to the "S" terminal on a CS144, the charging voltage would jump by the voltage drop of the diode. Duplicating this with the AD244 has no effect on the charging voltage.

The AD244 internal regulator runs a 400hz PWM on the field, and that is the signal that goes back to the PCM to determine engine load. The "turn on" signal from the PCM is 10.4 volts @ 500 ma. The alternator is not full fielding, and there is no handy tab to ground for that test either.

If you do know someone that has info on this I would appreciate it. Perhaps there is a different regulator part number that will allow full output.


The best alternator Ford ever built was the 3G. Simple, reliable. Any junkyard 130A 3G will push 145A @ 12.5v (for short periods) and 200A is possible with a better set of diodes. I have seen one turned into a decent TIG welder.


B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Fri December 07, 2007 9:50 AM User is offline

Assuming the AD244 is like the CS144 only outputting 12.5 volts, that sure sounds like one of the main diodes is burnt open, the excessive ripple screws up the sensing, output voltage drops to about that 12.5 V level, and the current output max's out at about 15 amperes. These regulators have both local and remote sensing, the S pin has to be greater than 6 volts to make the switch over, that switches the sensing from the B+ large hole battery connection to the S terminal. The older CS series used real resistors for sensing so an ohmmeter would show around 120K, but the newer ones have an FET input that shows infinite resistance, this was done to decrease the standby current, the resistor would also put a 100 ua load on the battery. An external power supply applied to the S terminal and increased to around 6 volts should do the switchover and because the real voltage is not there, the regulator will go into an overvoltage mode of around 18 volts.

Main diodes are actually zener diodes that clamp any reverse spikes at 22 volts, all six diodes are zeners in the OE version, many aftermarket units either use regulator diodes or just the avalanche in the three positive diodes. Poor.

Excitation is via the I-L terminal, the I configuration adds a 390 ohm resistor in series with the lamp driver transistor, L version is direct to the collector of the transistor, warning lamps use the L configuration, voltmeter indicators use the I with the internal resistor added. You don't want to apply 12V to the L configuration, will pop that transistor. This must use the I circuit, just need ignition 12 V to turn it on. F goes directly to the field winding that is grounded, CPU measures the average field voltage for idle speed control.

Never seen the P terminal or phase terminal used externally, would be the stator terminal, but S is used for sense, is a pulsating DC output and used internally as a tach signal for controlling the load response time. Earliest versions switched off the field completely when the system voltage was greater than the setpoint voltage, this resulted in complete loss of the phase signal that would flash on the warning lamp, later cured by always applying a 10% duty cycle to the field, only resulted in about 50 ma of field current.

I have yet to see a GM expanded voltmeter that was dead on, could always find a trim resistor in the electronic dash, easy in analog dashes, and trim that so it reads dead on.

You could try to check the alternator output voltage with just about everything off, standard setpoint voltage is 14.7 V at 25*C that would taper off 13 mv for each 1*C temperature increase, or increase by that amount when it got colder. But putting the VR inside the alternator was never a good idea, Delco battery hated it, because the heat of the alternator would greatly lower the charging voltage causing sulfation of the batteries, giving the battery division a lot of headaches. One VR was made using a remote mounted thermistor pasted next to the battery, but it's application was extremely limited. Think that was the 437, but has been a long time. If the battery voltage decreases with extra loads applied, if you have a scope, check the ripple voltage at the output of the alternator, peak to peak ripple should be less than 300 mv, but if you see big spikes, have a bad main diode. Hope this helps.

Was at another electrical supply company this morning, have several types of entrance aluminum wire, but nothing as small as 6 AWG, was available 20-30 years ago, but now they want you to pay through the nose for copper.

JJM on Tue December 11, 2007 12:02 AM User is offline

Alternator Question

I hate to hijack a thread, but since you guys are talking alternators, I have a question...

The battery on my '84 Olds 98 Regency was deader than dead, so I needed to jump start it with the 225A booster. After it started up, the alternator light was very dimly glowing. Figuring the old battery had it, I went to my local AC/Delco jobber for a new battery... geez AC/Delco has gotten expensive - $139 for this thing... but after installing the alternator light still very dimly glows, regardless of engine RPM or electrical load. Must of cooked something jumping it with the booster.

When I was younger, single, and richer, I would just replace the whole damn alternator. But now I'm married and poor, and don't feel like paying north of $400 for a new 12 SI alternator - since I won't install rebuilt garbage. So the question is can a guy like me repair this thing? And if so, what is the likely culprit? My educated guess leads me to believe the diode trio is bad, but since I've never repaired an alternator before, I'm wondering if that's the problem and how "do able" 12SI repairs might be. I do have the factory service manuals.

And remember guys, I'm not an engineer so try to keep it simple for a dummy like me!

Also, should I consider those alternator repair kits on eBay (likely aftermarket) or stick with only AC/Delco replacement parts? The "minor" AC/Delco parts don't seem that expensive for the most part. Although the vehicle has only 45,000 miles, anything else I should consider while I have it apart... bearings, brushes, regulator?

I've rebuilt carburetors, calipers, and other automotive parts, but never an alternator. What say you, NickD and Bohica?

Thanks so much guys!

Joe

bohica2xo on Tue December 11, 2007 3:01 AM User is offline

Joe:

A 12SI is a piece of cake. Parts are available & fairly priced.


Nick:

Thanks for the detailed reply. The AD244 is a different animal from what you have described however...

There is no "I-L" terminal on the regulator. instead it is P - L - I/F - S



And the whole thing looks like this. The diode mounts are all plastic, and the brush holder can be deflected with a fingertip:



All of that junk is covered by a plastic cover that snaps on.

I have 3 of those on the bench right now. The one in the pics is the original unit from the 2005 H2. It has 6k miles on it. All three units show the same regulator performance. On a cold start, with well charged batteries & 55f ambient - the charging voltage is 13.5v If I charge the batteries fully with a charger that stops at 15v overnight, the alternator will charge about 10 amps - on a vehicle that draws 50 amps or more at idle. Once the battery voltage drops it will begin to charge in the 70 amp range @ 13.5v

I did not have any luck with the remote sensing last week, but I am going to try again with a bench test tomorrow. The 10.8v signal from the PCM is connected to the "L" terminal, and the load signal to the PCM goes out on the "I/F" terminal. I would really like to see this thing charge @ 14.7 - at least when it is 55f.

The two other alternators are part of a dual alternator setup the owner paid for. Alleged to be "230 amps each", they still charge at 13.5v - never see more than 160 amps from either one. Thanks for the heads up on the missing avalanche diodes - that is exactly the case with the two "amp monsters". They are (electrically) noisy as hell too. The OEM unit sends whine into the audio system, but the aftermarket units are 3x as bad. The dual system never worked - the PCM would shut down the alternator circuit when you plugged in the supplied wye plug - too much regulator current both ways.

I try to avoid projects like this, but the owner is a good customer. They make outrageous speakers for the car audio market. This hummer has about 8kw (RMS) worth of amplifiers in the audio system. 6kw on the subwoofers alone. I have seen it push 165db @ 27hz - the doors & roof actually bulge when it hits.

I needed the space in my shop, so it is rolling around with a hand built 3G ford unit I stuffed in it. I benchmarked it on batteries run down to 12.3v - it put out 203 amps @ 14.2v Yeah, I know it won't do that forever - but for right now it is keeping the batteries charged better than the OEM unit. Interestingly enough there is no radio noise. The down side is the information display keeps scrolling "BATTERY NOT CHARGING", and the owner is a big time Chebby guy - that whole "Ford" thing makes him wince.

Now it looks like I need to replace the crap diodes in the aftermarket units, fix the dual bracket (designed by a drunk chicken with MS), isolate the second alternator from the PCM, AAAAND figure out how to jack up the charging voltage...


B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Tue December 11, 2007 8:12 AM User is offline

Of course it's the F-I terminal, what in the hell was I thinking? But still the same 390 ohm start up resistor that replaces the function of the resistance of the light bulb. F terminal is rarely used as the CAS is the prime determining factor for idle speed control, so instead of connecting the F-I terminal to the high side of the field, it is connected to a 390 ohm resistor that has it's other end connected to the L terminal. Put an ohmmeter between the L and F-I terminal, that verifies if you have the I rather than F configuration, should read around 400 ohms.

Please realize I have emotional problems with this subject, high paying job one day, on the street the next. I'm doing okay and don't have to hand out carts at Wal-Mart, but I really do not miss the constant stress of that job.

Your photos sure look like the changes made between the CS-130 and CS-130D, kind of a Delco copy of the much older Denso design putting the stuff on the rear cover instead of inside of it. If you compare your AD244 with Joe's 12SI that only outputs about 85 amperes, if I remember correctly, Joe's unit is quite a bit heavier with a lot more steel and copper. The CS series was designed past the limit of sanity, as opposed to the old brush type generators that did not have an inherent current limiting function and required an external regulator to limit the output current so the unit wouldn't fry, it was traditional in alternator design to use a relatively high resistant stator with a limited amount of field magnetizing force to limit the output current. As you are aware, a discharged battery will suck all the current the alternator can produce until it charges to produce a counter-EMF.

The CS series is already pushed to death, yet other jokers are trying to get even more out of it, I met some of these guys in the past, first class BS's that don't even have an engineering degree let alone knowledge about basic magnetism. Trick is to increase the wire gauge in the stator a couple of sizes while increasing the ampere turns of the rotor winding. This defeats the inherent current limiting, but drives the alternator into magnetic saturation and fries the diodes. I don't see this as being your problem, but the problem of the jokers that made this change. I would take them back and have them fix the problem.

I really don't want to get into vehicle audio systems, most are a very bad joke loaded with distortion and phase cancellation, thinking more speakers produce more noise, my son's friend with a 1,500 watt amplifier bragged that went he cranked up the volume his engine would kill. Designed a 120 watt system for my son's truck that out blasted his with less than 2% THD. But kind of figure this is what your customer was doing with those extra batteries and alternators.

In contrast, I put a 120 watt audio system in my motorhome that is well beyond the threshold of pain, charging three 100 AH batteries, running the AC and headlamps, and doing all this with a 10SI 63 amp alternator. If you apply a variable DC voltage to a speaker to the point where the cone will not move anymore, that pretty much tells you how much power you can apply to a speaker, forget about those elaborate claims these liars put out. For example you may find that a 2 ohm speaker can only handle a maximum of 8 volts, anymore voltage and the cone will not move anymore, that's only 32 watts! Any higher voltage only produces clipping, no more DB's, just distortion. Isn't your customer worried about protecting his ears, or is he already stone deaf? My average listening level to the point of pain is more like 2 watts, still at a 110 DB level. OHSA says I should be wearing ear protection.

But if that what he wants, you give the guy what he wants, look into either Delco or Leece Neville alterantors that can crank out 200 amps all day, very typical in the school bus market where they have about ten blower motors running all day.

12 SI is a very simple alternator to take apart, stator leads have eyelets that bolt to the main diodes, don't even need a soldering iron. The so-called battery lamp straps between the B+ and the diode trio output, the diode trio emulates the three main positive diodes but supplies field voltage. An ohmmeter with a diode test feature is all you need to test the diodes for conduction in one direction, infinite in the other that is the same for the main diodes and diode trio. Thing is, the diodes have to be removed first for this test as the stator leads are acting as a short circuit when connected. Either a bad main diode or a diode trio diode being opened will cause the lamp to glow. Since these components are held in with a nut, a loose nut could be the problem and is also a major cause of failure, like to use a toothed lock washer and glue the nut after tightening it.

If you don't want to fool with it, buy this one NAPA Premium can guarantee to you the same company that rebuilds Delco also rebuilds this one, list exchange price is $75.00, I always do much better than that with my NAPA guy.

I had a 12SI like that in my 78 Caddy where the diode trio failed, didn't have one laying around, only rated at 3 amps, so slapped in three 1M5410 3 amp diodes I had laying around using heat shrink and eye terminals, that would be rated at 9 amperes, lasted forever.

NickD on Tue December 11, 2007 9:34 AM User is offline

I did find three brand new Bryant quad BQ240240 circuit breakers that list for $105.00 each for nine bucks each, checked them out and perfect. This will allow me to dump a double slot 240 V breaker, install the tankless and still have two 240 V breakers left free if I want to add something else, although I have no idea as to what at this time. Just ask friends around, like me, they all have a pile of junk laying around they purchased and never used. And I will find the wire at a decent price if not for free, seek, and thou shall find.

mhamilton on Tue December 11, 2007 10:49 AM User is offlineView users profile

Joe, if you decide not to repair your OE alternator, go with the Napa reman Nick suggested. I have one in my Malibu for over 45k miles now (think it's the 65 amp model). I did get a dud reman alternator once, but it was a bearing that failed within a week, so returned it and have not had problems since. Usually don't like reman parts, but seems the old alternators are simple enough for them to get right.

There's no arguing with the audiophools. I was doing tube amp restorations on the side a while back (stopped doing that when I realized most of these deadbeats were not going to pay me for my services, even though gave an up front estimate). Had one guy who wanted me to add an audio output with a 1/4" plug on the end. I was told to "install the wire with the words going this way, so that the sound would come out the right direction." Just smile and nod...


CorvairGeek on Tue December 11, 2007 11:40 AM User is offline

Joe,

I assume we are talking about a 307 powered 98 w/78 amp alternator. As I recall, you aren't an electronics guy, so this would be my recommendation on a "shot gun" repair with NAPA parts.

Alternator Brush Set, Item#: ECHR440 Price: $5.29 (since you are there, they may be fine, you'll need a paper clip to retain them
on reassembly)
Alternator Diode Trio, Item#: ECHAC12 Price: $4.69
Alternator Diode - Negative Item#: ECHAC13 Price: $27.49 (Rectifier Bridge)

You could also go with the kit below, but it does not contain the Alternator Diode - Negative (Rectifier Bridge), which I have seen frequently fail. It does give you the regulator, which I don't have above.

Alternator Repair Kit Item#: ECHARK101 Price: $21.99 (Kit contains Regulator, Brush Set, Diode Trio, Brush Pin and D.E. Bearing

I did quote the premium Echlin line in all these with the NAPA online price. I personally don't like this particular alternator as a "rebuilt". I haven't gotten one that is actually a true 78A when I have exchanged them. I repaired my original on my '84 Caprice.

Incidentally, I really like the '84 Olds 98. I have seen some in the U-Pull-It yard here that make me sick, they were still so much like new in the desert (I'm from the rust belt originally). Obviously had been well cared for (one even had the seats covered) until something in the powertrain broke.

Jerry





-------------------------
Jerry

Edited: Tue December 11, 2007 at 4:55 PM by CorvairGeek

bohica2xo on Tue December 11, 2007 11:57 AM User is offline

Nick:

Thanks, I had no contact with the 130 / 130D systems - the last chebby I worked on had an SI alternator.

I talked to the clowns that did the dual alternator setup - they are not qualified to clean the lint filter in my clothes dryer. Engineering degree? LOL, not likely - probably not even a high school diploma.

Leece-Neville? Ugh. I Would much rather put a C716 Niehoff unit on it. Brushless, made from forged parts. Rated 400 amps @ 14v & 200f. Continous rated per NFPA1901 @ 375 amps at 200f ambient. If they make the planned changes for SEMA 2008, I will have to. Right now they have not bugeted the 1900 dollar price of that alternator yet...


These guys are far from the average audio clows out there. Those 16 in bass drivers stroke about 3 inches - all six of them. Substantial work went into the enclosure for the back half of the vehicle. It is carefully designed, including FEA. The ported enclosure takes up the back third of the H2, with other enclosures for the midrange & tweeters. They even did a full FEA on the additional battery racks.

There is no distortion from the system, only from your overloaded eardrums. From 200 feet it sounds great, about 92 db. This is a technology demonstrator for them. They build speakers to order, winding custom coil loads etc. I have fixed their CNC machining centers a few times, they make much of the speaker in house (no chinese crap), and even energize their own magnets (worked on that mess too - machine still has an ignitron in it!). Definitely not the average loudbox car.

I will bench run the OEM unit today into a smaller battery to see if I can make the remote sensing work. Even 250 amps between the two of them would be an improvment...

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Tue December 11, 2007 1:52 PM User is offline

My choice is to get my hands on an OE core, lots or replacement garbage out there, need an impact wrench to remove the pulley nut, the rest is easy although prying apart the case halves can be testy due to corrosion, front bearing has a retainer plate, bearing presses out easy. The OE stator uses thinner laminations and the rotor is much better machined, the stator rotor gap should be about 5 mils. I use a diamond tipped tool bit to clean up the slip rings, but if in good shape, can be cleaned up with 1000 grit wet sandpaper so you can see your smile. I like tossing the rotor in my environmental chamber heating it to around 250*F with 12 volts applied, this assures no high temperature shorts are around. Inspect the stator for nicks in the wire, I use an HP impedance bridge that tells me if there are any internal coil to coil shorts, but not really necessary, if you have a scope, the ripple voltage will not be constant. The rectifier can be taken apart and new pressed in diodes installed, for the 12SI preferred Motorola 30 amp-200 volt diodes. When removing the voltage regulator, watch which two screws are insulated, the third one is not and that is the ground screw, mix those up and get a short circuit.

VR must have the Delco name on it, again, lots of crap on the market, and is the so called pin 1-2 VR, pin 2 is the sense pin, normally ties directly to the B+ output post, pin 1 is the output of the diode trio that also supplies voltage to the field circuit but needs a start up voltage. On the vehicle, this can be done by using a #53 bulb with a couple of clip leads attached, hook one side to the B+ terminal the other side to pin 1, if the engine is running, the bulb will flash for an instant and go out if all is normal with 14.5 volts out at the B+ terminal, if dim, have a problem, this helps isolate problems with the ignition circuit. If pin 2 is not connected to B+, VR will go into second regulation and the output voltage will increase to about 18V depending on the status of the battery.


I like Made in USA batteries, did find a chinese bearing in my 10SI, got two points when it hit my trash can 12' away, my wife hearing that noise asked if I was okay, said fine, just having a farewell party for a piece of garbage. I have been repacking my bearings for years, even new ones with Wolf's Red high temperature bearing grease, usually good for the life of the car.

If buying a rebuilt, if the guy shows you a sandblasted unit, say no thanks, show me another, also look for the Delco name on the case, if not there, show me another. Very easy to remove the rear cover on these things and separate the halves if it is clean well built unit, may have to do that to clock it. The brushes and springs will pop out which is the reason for that paper clip wire straightened out, there is a small hole in the rear of the unit, have to put the springs and brushed back in and push that wire through holes in the brush holder before you can put the rear cover back on, and don't forget to remove that paper clip, you will burn out the VR if you don't.

NickD on Tue December 11, 2007 2:33 PM User is offline

Mr. Bohica, as this thread gets longer, you are providing more and more information, exactly how much current is this audio system drawing and is it at 12 volts? With 8.5KW of power at full volume, heaven help us, that system can pull over 800 amps! But music power is never constant unless they are applying a sine wave, 200 amps average should be more in order. The batteries can handle the peaks.

Think you mentioned two of these souped up AD244's, are they connected in parallel? If so with the internal regulators, will never work, one alternator will be 10mv lower than the other and it will provide the full output while the other just rests until the working one's output voltage drops, but that time, it is already burnt out. Only way to parallel alternators is to use a common voltage regulator for both, B+ can be strapped together, but the field driven from a common source, this requires a custom regulator. This series uses an N-channel MOSFET in the common drain connection, the VR has a built in voltage doubler that applies about 24-28 volts to the gate circuit to make sure the field transistor is well saturated, this can get tricky.

You mentioned the C716 Niehoff, where was it used, and does a junk yard around you have one? I haven't worked with Niehoff, well not in the last 30 years, but if like LV, VR is all discrete and can be repaired, with a good field, stator, and bearings, should be good to go. I have yet to rewind a stator, but field coils are easy, my machine shop presses out the shaft for me, don't have a 50 ton press in my lab and don't want one either.

Those two DR244's may be an overkill, but certainly are a problem. The CS series was never intended for continuous duty use, they figure full output only lasts about a minute to put some charge in the battery where it quickly tapers off.

Edited: Tue December 11, 2007 at 2:34 PM by NickD

JJM on Wed December 12, 2007 4:43 PM User is offline

Thanks so much Nick for those detailed instructions and tips - a lot better than the factory service manual. Real genius is the ability to make the complex understandable.

I'd rather not go with NAPA anything... you know me, I only use OE parts, even on this 23 year old car... belts, hoses, filters... you name it... all genuine GM parts. And believe it or not, the prices of the NAPA parts Jerry listed are pretty much the same as OEM AC/Delco parts, so I'm going to stick with AC/Delco. But I do like Jerry's shot gun approach on parts replacement, and that's what I'll end-up doing. Still a lot cheaper than a new alternator, and it'll remain all OEM.

And yes Jerry, you're correct that I'm (unfortunately) not much of an electronics guy, and indeed the 98 is a 5.0 liter V-8 (VIN Y) with 78 amp alternator. It's a 2 door couple with only 45,000 miles, owned since new, but it was involved in a major collision and repaired - though not to my standards. One of these days I'll "clean up" the repairs.

If you found a mint 98 with the seats still covered, you should consider picking it up. As you know from your '84 Caprice, these vehicles are easy to repair and relatively inexpensive to maintain (by today's standards).

Thanks so much guys!!!

Joe

CorvairGeek on Wed December 12, 2007 5:51 PM User is offline

Joe,

Glad to hear you can get the OEM parts for the NAPA price. I've become quite an OEM guy myself in recent years. I've been mad at NAPA as of the past couple years too, but sometimes I fall into my old ways.

Your 98 is a coupe too? That's cool! I haven't seen a coupe in a long time, always sedans. The FWD coupes in '85 were really odd looking, besides being POS', IMHO.

I'm really partial to my 305 (VIN H) and the 700R4, besides I bought it new (couldn't have afforded an Olds then). I have retrofitted my original Caprice seats (still excellent) with dual power bases (originally only drivers) and power recliners. That's why I was admiring the 98s/88s and Park Avenues/Le Sabres that have held up so well in the desert.

-------------------------
Jerry

mhamilton on Wed December 12, 2007 6:43 PM User is offlineView users profile

Those C bodies were something else... it's a shame, don't see many big Olds on the road anymore.

I've had a hard time getting common parts from the dealer. I still get Delco oil filters, but couldn't get wiper refills. Not going to change the OE aluminum pieces for painted black arms, that was all the dealer had. Ended up finding Trico replacements at Advance auto. The other thing is the PCV breather filter. For the past two years, every one I put it warps from the heat and the filter falls out. I ended up using a piece of wire to tie the plastic together. The Delco part is identical to the Wix part from NAPA.

Has anyone found an oil pressure switch that doesn't start leaking after 6 months? Looking at the online catalogs, the $2 napa part looks identical to the $12 Delco. Not sure if I should bother with that.



Bohica, I hope you know I wasn't referring to your customer, just to audio whacks in general LOL

Even though the bleeding-ear car audio group seems way different than the tube junkies, both seem to think they have superhuman ear drums. Nevermind thinking they can hear a difference between BJT and FET amps, the tube audiophools claim they can hear differences in audio between different brands of capacitors... the really wacky ones think that 50 year old plastic dipped wax/paper caps have mystical audio qualities. Just don't tell them those caps didn't have 1M ohm from leakage when new!

NickD on Wed December 12, 2007 9:05 PM User is offline

Joe, what I said was if you were going to buy a rebuilt, Rayloc a company in WV, I was there many times rebuilds the same alternator for the NAPA premium line that they rebuild for Delco, same exact specifications. I would certainly regrease your front bearing, and slap some grease in the rear bearing, you should still have a Made in USA bearing in your original alternator. I am happy you decided to go the parts route and keep your original alternator.

Since I use to design vacuum tube circuits for industrial applications where noise was a key factor in low level instrumentation applications, solid state with the introduction of silicon was several magnitudes lower in noise than even the best vacuum tubes so it was solid state for me, even way back then for my own personal audio applications. Couldn't set anything on top of a vacuum tube amplifier, would cook it, took up a lot of space and ran up the AC electrical bills. Been purchasing digitally remastered CD's of the Kingston Trio, Enoch Light, Martin Denny, still have the original LP's, but the clarity of the CD's is far superior. Guess I like clarity over noise, guess I am not an audiophile.

bohica2xo on Thu December 13, 2007 3:19 AM User is offline

Nick:

The Niehoff C716 is not the sort of thing you will find in the average junkyard. They are used on fire trucks & military vehicles. The 14v unit is actually a down-regulated 24v unit, similar to the one used in military vehicles. They are easily rebuilt, and almost never scrapped. Niehoff's brushless design has no moving windings, and is very reliable.

It has been an interesting day.
I finally got to bench test the AD244 OEM unit from the H2. I connected it to a group 31 battery, and spun it up. Interestingly enough it behaves quite well once seperated from the PCM in the vehicle. The remote sensing works properly, and it charges at 14.8 volts @ 20c Output is good as low as 3000 rpm, and by using my power supply for a reference voltage on the "S" terminal I can run the voltage all the way up to 16.8 volts with decent load regulation.

One thing I did notice is in the KOEO condition, the "L" terminal draws 2.00 amps @ 10.8 volts. This drops to 10ma once the alternator is spinning above 1800 rpm. You mentioned a ballast resistor for the L connection - I just duplicated the vehicle voltage with a power supply. Seems like it would be a big resistor for 2 amps, and without a divider circuit the L terminal would see full voltage as soon as the load dropped?

You say that the two alternators will not run in paralell? I have never had a problem getting multiple 3G ford units to load share, is this GM specfic?

It would appear that the PCM is PWM'ing the 10.8v signal to the regulator, and causing the low charge voltage / lack of remote sensing, because it all works fine away from the vehicle. I can't put my hands on the H2 right now to have a look-see with a scope. It seems they drove it to a car show in Florida... Just hope they don't need dealer service with that ford alternator in there!


you asked about the audio system draw. Yes, 800 amps is about right. The vehicle is wired with 1/0 cable, including dedicated grounds. The bad news is that most of the demo time is not at highway speeds. At best the vehicle is idling, many times they run the system with the engine stopped. At SEMA they would run the batteries all the way down to 11.9v by the end of the day. The subwoofer amp section draws about 120 amps under "listening" conditions.


Mhamilton:

The audio fools are always entertaining. These guys make fun of them just like you and I do. The "SPL" crowd or "Db Drag Racers" are a source of income & advertising. Watching the roof & doors on that H2 bulge outward sells speakers. The gush of wind from the back seat will literally blow your hair foreward. The point of this particular unit is the ability to produce high quality sound when not trying to shove the windshield out of the body - and it does it very well. The audio clowns I was refering to are the guys that put 300 bucks worth of chinese junk into an MDF box - and call it an "engineered system" They are the same jerks that snip wires & install crappy alarm systems with cheap butt splices in areas prone to road salt... The tube amp / rumble & hiss / turntable / room heater / etc guys are a whole different breed as well.


Joe:

Rebuilding your own alternator can be a good place to start. I got started in MVAC because it was obvious that the guy I was paying to fix my A6 was not as smart as the dog sleeping in his shop... I started doing alternators in self defense as well. The delco you are talking about is about as straightforeward as it gets. The only special tool you need is a paperclip.



B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Thu December 13, 2007 7:30 AM User is offline

Quote
One thing I did notice is in the KOEO condition, the "L" terminal draws 2.00 amps @ 10.8 volts

You do not apply 12V directly to the L terminal, you have to apply it either through a 390 ohm resistor or a #53 light bulb, the L terminal is the collector of the lamp drive collector and needs a load. Surprised you didn't burn it up. If you put an ohmmeter between the F-I terminal and the L terminal and measure about 400 ohms, the F-I terminal is the I terminal standing for Ignition and goes directly to the ignition switch for it's 12 volts and the internal resistor acts as the collector load and this is the common configuration for a vehicle that has a voltmeter to show whether the system is charging or not. The L terminal is used with the battery warning lamp that draws only about 200 ma when the alternator is stalled with the ignition on. When the alternator starts rotating, phase pulses are measured with an chip internal frequency counter, when it hits about 50 Hz, this signals the lamp drive transistor to turn off. It's okay to apply 12V to an off transistor, when it's on, that is when you can burn it out without a load resistor or a bulb.



Quote
You say that the two alternators will not run in paralell? I have never had a problem getting multiple 3G ford units to load share, is this GM specfic?

No, if the 3G's have not been souped up and have retained their inherent current limiting characteristic, one alternator would supply most of the load, what is a 3G anyway, about 60 amps, they can run all day like this and if the current load exceeds the output rating, it's voltage will drop allowing the 2nd or 3rd paralleled alternator to come in. But you have souped up alternators whose output rating is way in excess of the stock diode rating, so that alternator will tend to pop a diode or two first before the 2nd will come in, and the second one is overloaded with the current limiting feature disabled and it will burn up next. But don't take my word for it, connect an ammeter in series with each alternator output and see how well they are sharing a common load. Only takes 10 mv difference between the sense voltage to completely turn on an alternator and turning it off and trying to get two of these to track is practically impossible. In production, try to hold better than a 1% tolerance in setpoint voltage that is around 140 mv, the two setpoint voltages would have to be exact for equal load sharing. This is further complicated by the negative temperature coefficient that drops the setpoint voltage by 13mv/*C, if one is running 1*C hotter than the other, it will get all the load, get the picture?

Yet another factor in the CS series is the main diode RMS current, the OE rotor has concave surfaces machined into the rotor pole pieces, what this does, briefly is invert the center portion of the peak sine wave to make it look more like a square wave so current is flowing more evenly over the conduction cycle. Aftermarket rotors skip this very important characteristic and just hit the diode with a peaked sine wave so even though the average output current is about the same, all of it flows only during that peak. This drastically increases the peak current flow and hence the diode current during that short cycle to three times as much where the diode instead of having a peak voltage drop of one volt can go up to 3-4 volts drastically increasing the RMS power dissipation of that diode, it will fry.

I do not believe the PMC is your problem, feel it's the ripple voltage of one alternator really screwing up the sense voltage of the other, with a 10 mv hysteresis setpoint voltage and guessing around 500 mv of ripple, the S terminal doesn't know if it's coming or going. But will work perfecting find is separated from the other alternator.

I know Joe is hot on OE parts, but that is history, GM screwed a group a of investors to take over Delco and turned most of their business to Delphi and is screwing them now into bankruptcy. The SI series of voltage regulators was transferred to Brazil about nine years ago as they can supply it to GM for 83 cents apiece, try and making that here with a five buck minimum wage while complying with OSHA and EPA regulations.

bohica2xo on Thu December 13, 2007 1:22 PM User is offline

Nick:

The low voltage / no remote sensing happens with only one alternator on the vehicle. The same alternator off of the vehicle behaves like a normal alternator. The dual system never worked when they installed it because the PCM would shut down the entire charging system - I believe due to an overcurrent on the circuit from the PCM.

I duplicated the OEM install by feeding 10.8 volts on the "L" terminal, just as it does in the vehicle. The alternator starts right up, and the current drops from 2 amps to 10 ma on the L circuit.


A 3G alternator will make 130 amps without straining in OEM configuration. I have never had more than three of them on a single system, but they all charge within a few amps of each other, less than 5% difference between units. Usually all hooked to a pair of 8D batteries, so there was plenty of load to share.

GM's stated policy of reducing charge when state of charge reaches 80% is below, from the GM corporate website:



Ironic that they added all of that electrical load, the reduced the state of charge. It may extend the life of components that they warranty, but it has got to be hard on batteries.


I just talked to the audio guys, and the general plan for SEMA 2008 is to add 12 more 105 aH batteries to the unit, along with more power amps. They are working on a new enclosure design that will be more rigid, and some better phasing. It will turn an H2 into a 2 seat vehicle... I will post some pictures of the current install when it gets back here.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Thu December 13, 2007 7:57 PM User is offline

Not sure if the Hummer is made by GM, AM General use to make Hummers, but who knows who owns what anymore, but do know the Hummer buys lots of parts from GM. I am at a disadvantage for not working on the DR244 VR, but the L terminal excitation seems very strange compared to any other GM regulator, and companies that buy components from other companies do make mistakes. It's also possible the Hummer has a resistor somewhere in series with the L terminal, typical GM was just to either switch the L terminal on through a bulb or directly to the I terminal that has a VR internal resistor. In any event, that is all that is needed to turn the darn thing on.



The CS144 412 VR has the S terminal, but it really doesn't have to be connected, also has local sensing that will regulate the alternator at approximately the same voltage, so I can only guess what the DR244 regulator is doing. And you say the P terminal is used and connected to the PCM, okay, this can tell the PCM what to do, but how does the PCM tell the alternator what to do? Has to be some kind of wire someplace to command it, Denso's had PCM control and used the C terminal for this function to reduce charging voltage. Doesn't really make sense to lower the charging voltage, won't the head lamps dim? If the DR244 is reducing the charging voltage, with no other wires attached, would have to do this internally, just look at the duty cycle of the field, if it lowers, trip the setpoint voltage to a lower value. Better not have too much gap on the AC clutch, it won't pull in!

Then you have the obstacle that you are not working with a stock system, but one that has been modified, seems like you may have to return it to stock, then boost it up from there.

bohica2xo on Tue March 04, 2008 2:37 PM User is offline

Nick:

I managed to work through the PCM/IR confusion, and got everything working. Long story but it works now. The really funny thing was the reaction of the GM types at some of the car shows when they spotted the 3G ford alternator it had in it. Several aftermarket alternator "hop-up" specialists? (cough) were so concerned they sent samples of their "work" to the H2's owner - looking for some advertising space on the vehicle of course. The guy is awash in junk parts & lousy dual alternator brackets.

Several of the 'high output" and "250 Amp" alternators looked exactly alike, and not one of them had a maker's name or country of origin on them... I believe they are asian mfg. None of them have avalanche diodes, and are noisy as hell electrically. At least 4 companies selling the same stuff as their own.

The best one was #5 however. Another off-the-boat "250 amp" AD244, with a new twist. A sloppy job of adapting the pulley with the overunning clutch to the Delphi alternator. WTF?

A bit of background. Bosch started putting the overunning clutch on some of the high performance VW stuff. The little VR6 spins up high, and they were having belt issues with hard shifts due to the alternator inertia. Just what we need, a 100 buck pulley with not enough grease in the bearing.... OK, on we go now.

I asked about the pulley, and was told "It makes more power that way". Again WTF? Well that is what it says in the brochure. On to the website I go, and I find this gem:

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The number one complaint I hear is this; "I have good power when I am driving but when I stop at a light my headlights dim and I loose bass." first lets look at why this happens and then we will talk about how we fixed it.

The reason for this is when the alternator turns faster it produces more power. So even though you may have a 100 amp alternator It may be as low as 25 amps at an idle. So as an example lets say that when you are driving your alternator is producing 75 to 100 amps and your vehicle including the stereo requires 75 to 100 amps then the alternator is working at its max power. Now when you stop at a light the load demand remains the same however the power from the alternator has been cut in half.

Now the cure for this, we are now offering a pulley with a built in clutch! That’s right, when you hit the gas the alternator "spools up" similar to a turbo. And then when you slow down it "free-wheels" at the same speed it was just turning. So you get moving power at idle speeds. This also causes less stress on the alternator causing it to last longer.
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Ok, now I get it. At idle it will spin faster than the belt speed & make full output! WOW, wish I had thought of that. Free energy. I sent them an E-mail & asked if it would overcharge the battery spinning overnight like that. No reply yet.


Second place was the shop that claims they get more out of an alternator by raising the voltage, and that a 130 amp alternator will make 130 amps at 12v or 36v because the wire gauge is what determines the amps... I guess they never got as far as watts.

B.
Link to above quote

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Tue March 04, 2008 3:20 PM User is offline

Amazing what you can learn on the web, I didn't know that. Ha, remember having to buy an over running clutch for the PTO on my Ford 2N tractor, when I first hooked up to a large brush cutter, got close to a tree, hit the clutch, but kept on going, tried to knock the tractor our of first gear, was locked solid, and I couldn't move that shift lever to save my soul. Switched off the ignition to no avail, I killed a tree. Was cured on the 8N, but the 2N engaged the PTO through the transmission gears and the PTO spinning that huge blade on the brush cutter provided all the power you needed to the wheel wheels. The over running clutch permitted that blade to spin faster than the PTO, so with it was easy to shift gears, yes with the tractor clutch disengaged.

Interesting device, one rotation would lock the ball bearings into a wedge, reverse would free it like no coupling at all.

In an alternator, one would think, if he could think, slowing the engine down would permit the alternator to spin, but will it? Not with a 100 amp load on it, would slow down a hundred times faster than the engine could, sounds like a perfect waste of money with more complexity.

In regards to power output, an alternator converts mechanical into electrical energy using magnetism as the medium, once the pole pieces and core are saturated with magnetic flux, you just don't get anymore. While some people may or may not know the difference between the IE product in terms of power output, the core knows that, and it's primarily the size of that core that determines the power output with the quality of the materials used to make that core the second most important factor assuming a rated speed. Course, we couldn't use the finest cores available with extremely thin laminations to reduce eddy current loss, and low retentivity to limit hysteresis loss, also the ability to maximize flux density at a given magnetic force. M-6 was super expensive with a grain oriented steel. An alternator could be made smaller, produce more power, higher output at idle speeds, and operate much cooler. Higher quality bearings and more precise machining would reduce the pole stator gap, another major loss plus upping the gauge of wire used a notch or two. Make it cheap was the rule.

If one of these guys tells you that, he may even know what he is talking about, in the meantime, install an over running clutch where you can get more energy out than what you are putting in. You may even save a tree, LOL.

bohica2xo on Tue March 04, 2008 3:47 PM User is offline

Nick;

I knew you would appreciate those two. I left off third place in the stupid contest -

"5x thicker high temp epoxy insulation on the stator & field windings reduces operating temperature".

I guess that IS true if you are talking about the case temperature, but I think the wire may be a bit hotter....

Yeah, a 2N could be a handfull with a big brush hog. I thought you would be as thrilled as I am about the sealed clutch on the alternator pulley. Probably a plain old roller sprag, but it might be a Mechanical Diode - when those crap out they do odd things...

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

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