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Four Seasons vet Pages: 12Last

The Disturbed Crew on Thu January 10, 2008 1:05 PM User is offline

Greetings all. I work for Four Seasons and I was noticing that a few post were on the boards about the company. I will answer questions about our product when time and work allows but I also have a few questions about the market. I will never be as arrogant as to know all the answers but I will be arrogant as to say I know where the answers are.

TDC

In the transmission of human culture, people always attempt to replicate, to pass on to the next generation the skills and values of the parents, but the attempt always fails because cultural transmission is geared to learning, not D.N.A.

~Gregory Bateson, "Mind and Matter"~

iceman2555 on Thu January 10, 2008 1:21 PM User is offlineView users profile

Verrrry interesting!!!!!

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

ice-n-tropics on Thu January 10, 2008 2:57 PM User is offline

Welcome TDC,
Been at 4S very long? Where else?
Cordially,
Old IV guy

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Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod

NickD on Thu January 10, 2008 4:10 PM User is offline

Quote
I will answer questions about our product when time and work allows

Question, does Four Seasons just repaint their rebuilt compressors, or do they take them apart, measure all tolerances and replace defective components?

Seems to be a nasty rumor going around that FS just paints them.

The Disturbed Crew on Thu January 10, 2008 4:35 PM User is offline

Hello, I have been at 4 seasons 14 years, before that I worked at Champion Auto parts rebuild for 10 years (until they shut down the Texas operations). Mostly in the shop floor area but received extensive training in all phases of machining, engineering, Quality control, QS9000/TS16949, etc... Starting last Sept. I was asked to transfer to a new 4 Seasons plant just built in Reynosa Mexico (about 3 miles the other side of the Texas/Mexico border just south of Mission Texas). I was promoted to supervisor for quality control and we have some great people here (somewhat of a language barrier but its getting better). I have slowly worked my way into a Quality Engineer position and working on production/product problems is allowing me to use simple critical thinking and common sense skills to solve major problems.

TDC

Quality in a product or service is not what the supplier puts in. It is what the customer gets out and is willing to pay for. A product is not quality because it is hard to make and costs a lot of money, as manufacturers typically believe. This is incompetence. Customers pay only for what is of use to them and gives them value. Nothing else constitutes quality.
~Peter Drucker (1909 - 2005)~

Karl Hofmann on Thu January 10, 2008 5:42 PM User is offlineView users profile

TIM!!!!!

Those blinking yanks are sneaking under the wire and across the border to flood Mexico with expensive labour again!!!

LOL

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

Chick on Thu January 10, 2008 6:36 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: Karl Hofmann
TIM!!!!!



Those blinking yanks are sneaking under the wire and across the border to flood Mexico with expensive labour again!!!



LOL

Karl, I have always said that they have the best paint jobs on the markets.. "Paint ain't cheap"!!! you have to go where the labor is cheap, so you can use the same quality paint... They could be going to China where the lead based paint flows on like glass, but at least they chose this continent.. Now leave Tim alone, he doesn't have that much hair left to pull out of his head....

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Chick
Email: Chick

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Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

NickD on Thu January 10, 2008 7:00 PM User is offline

Quote
Those blinking yanks are sneaking under the wire and across the border to flood Mexico with expensive labour again!!!

Not hardly, Karl, Americans can cross the border in the morning and come home at night, but the EPA cannot, so just build a plant south of the border, hire Mexicans cheap, no FICA taxes, workmens comp, health insurance to pay, and just run the toxic waste into the streets. Americans just run the plant.



Quote
Quality in a product or service is not what the supplier puts in. It is what the customer gets out and is willing to pay for. A product is not quality because it is hard to make and costs a lot of money, as manufacturers typically believe. This is incompetence. Customers pay only for what is of use to them and gives them value. Nothing else constitutes quality.

By any chance, did Peter Drucker also write instructions for the IRS? Makes just about the same sense.

TRB on Thu January 10, 2008 8:02 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: Karl Hofmann
TIM!!!!!



Those blinking yanks are sneaking under the wire and across the border to flood Mexico with expensive labour again!!!



LOL

Karl you are a fanatic! Did you not read the poster was asked to go to Mexico? Got to read the whole post before jumping the gun pal. Speaking of that how many were blown up

today?

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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

TRB on Thu January 10, 2008 8:05 PM User is offlineView users profile

Let's give the Four Season poster a chance to join the forum. We all know there has been a trend of poor performance/durability with FS remans. Maybe the poster can shed some light on this for us.

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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

MrBillPro on Thu January 10, 2008 8:12 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: TRB
Let's give the Four Season poster a chance to join the forum. We all know there has been a trend of poor performance/durability with FS remans. Maybe the poster can shed some light on this for us.

Amen! Brother I think he will be an asset to the forum.

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Don't take life seriously... Its not permanent.

The Disturbed Crew on Thu January 10, 2008 9:28 PM User is offline

Well gee, where to begin?????

first of all no we don't just paint our remans. I think where that particular rumor got started was in our receiving process. When we purchase a core from a supplier the first thing we do is to manually check the hub for rotation. If it spins we call it a "Pumper" if it does not we call it a "lock up". At this point they are separated. Ill explain why in a minute....*
All our compressors are then sent through a prewash to clean the oil and grease off them. All compressors are then torn down and toughly inspected.
We automatically replace items such as piston rings, "O" rings, gaskets, (If there is internal damage to the pistons and cylinders they are handled differently and I will explain how at a later date). After inspection repair/replace components and the assembly process, we randomly test the compressors on a "Life test stand" that simulates the life expectancy on a car. I love this part because I was told "Back in the day" they wanted me to try to "Blow up the compressor" to test how she does. Sometime I was able to and some times it was impossible (funny the ones that ALWAYS passed my worst were the old O.E A6's. The cast iron gut packs were a pain in the a**).

*If a hub spins there is a good chance that there is little to no damage to the internal parts, If its a lock up there is a good chance there is internal damage to such items as the pistons, cylinders, suction/discharge reeds, shaft, etc... then we put the unit through a complete rework, rebuild cycle. I will expand these processes later...

As far as the "EPA" comment is concerned, you would be surprised at the requirement we have to follow "on the other side". The fines are stiffer for american companies and with the problem of the water quality for our cleaning process its a running battle....

The labor might be cheap but the fees for transferring pallets and receiving parts and supplies across the border plus paying for "providers" in mexico, most companies would actually do better staying in America but since we are only a division of standard motors the hold they title (They point and I go).

The shining point for me is I'm only 1 hour from some premo salt water fishing and fresh sea food 365 days a year....

TDC

"there's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot. "
~Steven Wright (1955 - )~

NickD on Fri January 11, 2008 8:35 AM User is offline

Ha, "(They point and I go)", sounds familiar, how the formation of the EPA and the energy crisis in the 70's changed just about everything. The midwest being the major manufacturing center of the world, hey, it was safe from Japan and Germany attack, first heads south, then across the border, then over to Japan, now to China. Mexico was welcoming US industry in the late 70's with a license to pollute, sounds like they are tightening up the reins on that. Probably why we are seeing more of Made in China then Mexico and half the Mexicans are coming here looking for jobs.

Yeah, I went down there when the corporation pointed, asked stupid questions like, do I get a bullwhip? But considering the sacrifice my family would have to make and my own health, quit instead of going. Each to his own. We managed.

See that Peter Drucker likes to make quotes, read several, most of it is that marketing jazz, in the real world, never use quality when talking to a PA, everybody claims quality, price is the only number they want to hear. In the rebuilding field, the real dirty word is returns, that is the key to success is to prevent any return. A return can offset the profits of ten good units. Put another way, if you are getting 10% returns, you should not be in the business at all.

We do hear about a lot of Four Season rejects here, you are quite large in the rebuilding field, maybe that's all we are hearing is the rejects, just like the major news stories, always hear about the bad stuff. Curious as to what your return rate is.

The Disturbed Crew on Fri January 11, 2008 9:16 AM User is offline

We try to shoot for the national average of 3% but what we have found out through our warranty return inspections is that @ 75% of our returns are due to incorrect replacement work done by "shade tree" mechanics and even the ASE certified mechanics not following the basic installation instructions such as flushing the system, replacing the filter dryer, pulling a vacuum BEFORE charging, and just plain negligence.

Our actually return rate is @ 4.9% to 6.2%

On a side note you would be amazed at how many "after market" compressors are ours. They are purchased by suppliers, boxed, and shipper under their own brand name. Only 1 way to tell if its ours and I cant give away that "Trade Secret".

We do have an OE program where we purchase complete units from sources like Visteon, ac, MAD DOG, shanghai Willy, etc... but these receive the same external inspections along with our random life testing that our rebuilt units do.

One more thing on the taxes here, because I work in Mexico but live in Texas and work for an American Company, I pay 2 income taxes, (Mexico's is somewhat higher surprisingly)

TDC

~One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man.
Elbert Hubbard (1856 - 1915)~

The Disturbed Crew on Fri January 11, 2008 9:23 AM User is offline

Just to add....

I dont know what China ever did to Mexico but any Import from China to mexico is an automatic 300% increase on the tariff's. We use a LOT of Mitutoyo gages and are having a hard time finding a good replacement source.

ice-n-tropics on Fri January 11, 2008 9:51 AM User is offline

TDC,
Hope you have a tough skin because this is a pretty tough crowd. Appreciate your sharing your back ground.
Went through 4S in grapevine several times and saw the 2 to 4 oz. of mineral oil that is put in each compressor to help it live through the initial break-in. Still do that?

One good exercise would be to compare under a microscope, the shaft sealing surface between a new DENSO/ZEXEL/SANDEN verses a Alma, 4S & CW new shaft. Look at the grinding directional rotation. Is it CW or CCW and why?
Cordially,
Old IV guy, CQE

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Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod

TRB on Fri January 11, 2008 12:46 PM User is offlineView users profile

I know our shop flushed had a clean and properly prepared system. We had a huge failure rate with Four Seasons remanufactured compressors. This was well over 10 years ago. As we have not used their compressors since. I do agree there is an issue on poor preparation and blaming the product. But I also see the same trend with FS remans today. Funny how a person can go through a few FS remans and have issues. Then turn around and put a New Seltec or Sanden and the problem is solved. Did the person doing the repair finally learn how to prepare the system? Maybe they were all along and finally got a reliable product.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

GM Tech on Fri January 11, 2008 1:11 PM User is offline

Does 4 seasons stilll grind down the pulley faces to resurface them like you would a brake rotor? I have had to take at least 5 4 seasons pumps off of cars due to pulley weld breakage because the welds were too thin- from resurfacing-- min thickness OEM was .072" these were near .040" . I always grimmaced at the small label-- "professionally remanufactered in Texas" Just my experiences with them.....
'

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The number one A/C diagnostic tool there is- is to know how much refrigerant is in the system- this can only be done by recovering and weighing the refrigerant!!
Just a thought.... 65% of A/C failures in my 3200 car diagnostic database (GM vehicles) are due to loss of refrigerant due to a leak......

The Disturbed Crew on Fri January 11, 2008 3:31 PM User is offline

ice-n-tropics, we haven't used Mineral oil for a while. We use a compound called ICE 32 (amazing stuff) as an assembly oil. @1 1/2 oz. AC Source on East Bell Road in phoenix is a good source for it. Microscopic analysis shows that most shafts are ground in a ccw direction if the compressor turns in a cw direction and ground cw if the compressor turns ccw. Shafts are also case hardened but there is so much variation in the case depth that its almost a moot point. We instead rely on tactile measurement and check for 2 things.
1. Diameter to within .005" of specification and,
2. Surface finish of 2 micro inches or less.
We do polish the shafts being careful to avoid creating a cross-hatch pattern in the seal area. The cross-hatch would lead to "wicking" the freon out not leaking it through the seal.

TRB, what was the main reason for failure? Was it just one item or a grocery list of them? We are constantly going thrum a continuos improvement system that monitors and corrects any issues we have. (hehehe, if you ever used a Green Machine to recover Freon, those are built by us also and one of Sandens head engineers was one of our "stars" a few years ago.

GM tech, our pulley are first measured for face thickness. What was the ones you found at "near .040"? The style designates how we face off the pulley.

I dont mind the tough crowd here but I am gratefull that there is a forum we we all can sit down and discuss issues in a civilized manner without resorting to name calling. At the end of the day we all learn something.

TDC

~A conference is a gathering of important people who singly can do nothing, but together can decide that nothing can be done.
Fred Allen (1894 - 1956)~

GM Tech on Fri January 11, 2008 3:38 PM User is offline

They were all HD-6 rebuilds- two off of Auroras and one off of an M-van-- (Astro) can't remember the exact vehicle the other 2 were off of......I remember the Auroras- because of how fun they are to replace the compressors.............

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The number one A/C diagnostic tool there is- is to know how much refrigerant is in the system- this can only be done by recovering and weighing the refrigerant!!
Just a thought.... 65% of A/C failures in my 3200 car diagnostic database (GM vehicles) are due to loss of refrigerant due to a leak......

TRB on Fri January 11, 2008 3:47 PM User is offlineView users profile

As stated it was well over 10 years ago. But I do remember locked, and extremely noisy FS reman compressors. I did not tear them down to check the cause. After replacing the compressor on the same vehicle a few times. Both myself and the other mechanics decided we had enough at that point. Should be noted, I'm talking about compressors lasting hours not months!

We also get cranky sometimes and call each other names. Chick is an old fart that is color blind!

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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com


Edited: Fri January 11, 2008 at 3:49 PM by TRB

Chick on Fri January 11, 2008 4:09 PM User is offlineView users profile

it was purple...........

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Chick
Email: Chick

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Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

Karl Hofmann on Fri January 11, 2008 4:09 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: The Disturbed Crew



I dont mind the tough crowd here but I am gratefull that there is a forum we we all can sit down and discuss issues in a civilized manner without resorting to name calling. At the end of the day we all learn something.


He He He.. When you have the required number of posts come and join us in the mad house, it is closed off to casual visitors... But don't mention the war, 'cos Tim argues like a big girl.....Just kidding Tim

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

Karl Hofmann on Fri January 11, 2008 4:11 PM User is offlineView users profile

Yeah, yeah yeah I know..Goddam commie liberal pinko Limeys LOL

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

The Disturbed Crew on Fri January 11, 2008 4:26 PM User is offline

Ill be by after the required # of posts and if the drug cartels and federalies will stop shooting at each other a bit. Had a shoot out @ 1/2 down the road from the plant a couple of days ago. Killed 2 cops a couple of feds ans a few suspects. We got to go thru a Military roadblock to get back to the border.....

I do agree with Karl though. As a US Navy veteran (submarines) and a vet of the cold war, there are only 2 types ov Russian Navel vessels,
1. Those that sink.
2. Those that sink faster.

TDC

~I took a speed reading course and read 'War and Peace' in twenty minutes. It involves Russia.
Woody Allen (1935 - )~

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