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Beer Refrigerator not cooling! Help! Pages: 12

JEL on Thu September 25, 2003 1:44 PM User is offline

Year: 1983
Make: Montgomery Ward
Model: Freezer on top
Engine Size: ???
Refrigerant Type: R-12
Ambient Temp: 90
Pressure Low: unknown
Pressure High: unknown

Emergency! My garage based beer refrigerator is not cooling well at all. Emergency!

(Before anyone gets excited, I know this is an automotive forum but the people on this list are knowledgeable as well as trustworthy.)

I cleaned the condenser but that didn't help. The interior also gets sweaty. I unplugged it for a day and left the doors open so it could gather it's wits in case the self defrost was an issue. It did do much better for a day or so but the same problem quickly returned. My current guess is that it is going into permanent defrost mode, possibly due to a bad defrost component.

According to the data sheet, it uses R-12. I have not ruled out a leak but given the behavior after I unplugged the thing for a day I am guessing that I have more of an electrical component problem of some sort.

I am confident the amassed wisdom on this list can help me figure this out.

Thanks,
Jim

NickD on Thu September 25, 2003 1:58 PM User is offline

Is this a dedicated beer refrigerator, or just a frostless refrigerator? If the later, it has a 24 hour timer with switch contacts that get very dirty after switching on and off for the last 20 years, it turns off the compressor and switches on the electric heaters for about 15 minutes. Grainger has a new timer with supposingly new contacts for around 12 bucks. I just clean the contacts once every 20 years whether it needs it or not, but the last one I replaced that plastic cam shaft was worn to nothing, so even though it killed me, I had to dig 12 bucks from my piggy bank and buy a new one.

JEL on Thu September 25, 2003 2:13 PM User is offline

It is an ordinary frostless refrigerator (a kegerator is on my wish list for someday).

I believe the switch in question on my box is handily located where I can get to it from the backside. I will pull it out tonight when I get home from work.

I am surprised that Grainger would carry refrigerator parts. The last time I tried to buy from Grainger they ran me off saying they were wholesale only. Has this changed?

Thanks,
Jim

JEL on Fri September 26, 2003 8:52 AM User is offline

Last night I removed the timer as directed and the contacts were indeed pretty ugly, both pitted and dirty. I cleaned/polished them with 600 grit sandpaper then with electronic parts cleaner.

After re-installing the timer, I noticed that they had cleverly made it possible for you to manually advance the timer for testing. I did so, one click at a time, until the compressor turned off. The ensuing quiet allowed me to verify that the timer motor was running since I could now hear it. Waited about 15 minutes and the compressor came back on, which is good.

So far, it seems to be working great. The real test will be in another day or two as that will give the timer a chance to do its job. Maybe I can get another 20 years out of it.

Thanks for the advice Nick,
Jim

NickD on Fri September 26, 2003 9:35 AM User is offline

After owning refrigerators for 40 years now, not good for economy, but I am only on my 3rd one. The first one shouldn't count as the buyers of my home wanted it and gave me nearly the money I paid for it, I wanted to move it with me, but the darn door opened the wrong way in my new home, so I let that one go. The second one lasted well over 32 years, but I redid my kitchen and it looked kind of dated so purchased a new one, it still worked well when I sold it, but that is the one I needed a new defrost timer on it. The box has a circuit diagram pasted on the back and the other contacts to clean are the motor starting relay and the thermostat contacts. Those cleaned well, the other minor problem with these things is that motor start capacitor developing leakage over 30 some years.

The big problem with these things is keeping the condenser clean, it sucks in dirt off the floor and piles it up on the coils. On a frostless, the water drips into a pan and after some 30 years, that pan can get rusty, also the condenser and evaporator fans can use a drop of oil from time to time. My new Amana is a bitch to clean, sucking up dog hairs like crazy so I added screens and made a filter out of a room air condition filter. That I vacuum clean once a week, just takes a minute. But most people let these go, their electric bill shoots up and the compressor eventually burns out. One friend had the heat of the compressor burn a hole in his floor. If the compressor goes, hardly not even worth the expense of replacing it for what they want for these things, but if that area is kept clean, they will last a long long time. They are not made for easy cleaning.

After living here 30 years, I found an appliance shop in town run by an 80 year old woman, needed a new drive belt for my now 18 year washer, she was the cheapest anywhere for a genuine replacement. Grainger was always good to me, I have no objection to paying wholesale prices if they only sell wholesale.

k5guy on Thu October 02, 2003 12:06 AM User is offline

If they only sell wholesale, just tell them that you own a business, and that you prefer to buy wholesale. Make up a couple of business cards at Kinkos and maybe some letterhead. Make it look nice and official. I have business accounts at Costco and Sams Club. No big deal really.


-------------------------


Send me e-mail

JEL on Mon October 06, 2003 11:31 AM User is offline

Beer refrigerator update. The unit worked well for a day or two but has since gone back to it's old tricks. Freezer is very cold while the fresh food area is only cool and has quite a lot of condensation dripping around.

I need to dig deeper into the innards. I notice that there aren't any "normal" access panels on the back.... how do you get to the evaporator area? I believe mine is sandwiched between the freezer and the fresh food area. Do you have to remove all the white interior panels that you normally see when retrieving a frosty brew?

Jim

NickD on Mon October 06, 2003 3:20 PM User is offline

Sounds like a freeze up, that defrost timer is a form C switch running 120 VAC to the compressor except for about a 15 minute cycle per day where that 120 VAC is applied to a bunch of electric heaters so double check those contacts and look on the back of your box for a circuit diagram that may have the resistance values of the heaters.

I don't have any parts manual on my Amana, but had problems with the evaporator motor making a terrible noise. I just started unscrewing interior panels until I found it figuring as long as I don't use a cutting torch, I can screw those panels back in like original.

One of the bracket screws was loose, but as long as I was that far, I pulled the motor, cleaned it, and added some oil to the bearings, I also used star lock washers so I won't have to do that again.

JEL on Tue November 25, 2003 9:23 AM User is offline

Beer refrigerator update:

I finally got around to doing further investigation. Big time freeze up was the problem. Ice was actually extruding from the back of the box where the wires enter.

I replaced the defrost thermostat which I believe should have shown an open circuit under warm conditions, but didn't. When that didn't fix the problem I bought a new defrost timer.

This time, I believe I got it. Not only does it work correctly, the box actually shuts off from time to time, as it should. Apparently the problem I was having before made the thing run continuously when it wasn't in defrost mode.

This is the first time I have had to work on this machine in the 20 years I have owned it. I had a 1968 Sears (Whirlpool) clothes washer that worked until 1997, almost 30 years. Got it for free in the early 80's, put in a new timer and got almost 20 years of service out of it.

At one time we shopped for a new washer but the salesman warned me that I wouldn't get any where near the service out of the new one that I got out of the old Sears machine. I took his advice and lived with the old machine for a few more years.

NickD on Tue November 25, 2003 10:21 AM User is offline

LOL, I have a 1985 Sears second best washer, not the troublesome Lady Kenmores, after 18 years, I recently had to replace the belt. While I was at it, I pulled the gear box, some of the screws were loose, but didn't observe and slop so didn't brother to take it apart. The gear shifting levels were a bit corroded, cleaned those off and added a tad of grease so they slide nice now. I pulled the timer and just a couple of contacts needed a little touching up. My water pump went last year, but I took the new one apart and learned the top bushing had a little bit of oil and the bottom was bone dry. It's very easy to take a new pump apart and grease it. Also oiled the main drive motor that had some oil in it but was getting slim. Was dusty with lint, blew all that out. I had to spend a buck fifty for a new snubber, was going to replace the plate it rides on, but they wanted 18 bucks for that piece of tin, what the heck the old one wasn't worn at all, just the paint is bare where the snubber hits it.

It's a very heavy machine, I look at the new ones and can easily move them with one hand, I plan on keeping this one for a long time.

I am pleased with my newer Amana refrigerator though, much more interior space and a lot quieter, also noted a lower electrical bill, but still had to add filters to it, much easier to clean the filter than haul it outside to blow the condenser clean.

Stevo30 on Tue November 25, 2003 11:14 AM User is offline

One thing to note is that the new refrigerators with R-134a and POE are much more sensitive to overheating and coking up of the oil than the older R-12 and MO or AB oil. Especially true if the unit uses capillary tube metering. Which most of them do. I've seen pictures of cutaways of tubing that is completely plugged with black sludgy gooey oil residue. When they plug, the lack of oil return and suction gas cooling overheats the compressor usually taking it out. Then you are done economically. The "new" fridge then becomes a very expensive boat anchor or minnow tank.

The only thing I can see to do is to get on a regular program of checking and cleaning the condensor. With my older reefers, I essentially didn't do any maintenance until the beer got warm or my wife started complaining. Now I'm doing a cleanout every six months and it's amazing how much stuff gets caught in the fins. This is especially true if you've got pets that shed or kids at play. So, is this really progress???

I guess it's just a case of pay me now or pay more later. Of course, I guess I could get used to warm beer. It seems to work for the Brits, but warm Bud just doesn't do it for me...


Stevo30

Bigchris on Tue November 25, 2003 11:40 AM User is offline

Since beer is a rental item, not something you purchase, you oughta be able to get it the way you want it.

NickD on Tue November 25, 2003 12:06 PM User is offline

I could easily clean out my old 1968 Kenmore refrigerator with a vacuum cleaner, so never fooled with filters on it. This Amana is so close to the floor, can even stick the end of a vacuum cleaner in it, so the first time I pulled it out to the garage and used the air hose on it creating a 30's like dust storm. That is when I made the filters for it, now it's easy.

In running Cat 5 cable through my cold air returns, was wondering why they don't put filters on the cold air return vents, the hot air ducts are clean, so out came the vacuum cleaner again. My new dishwasher is very close to the floor, had a heck of a time sliding it back in to clear the water inlet copper tubing. I finally got smart and put an X on the floor and routed that tubing to that X using a clamp to hold it there, only about 3/4" of clearance under the motor and I couldn't squeeze my are under there to hold it down. The extra space in the dishwasher is nice though, don't have to run it as much.

The people I met with frostless refrigerator problems are the ones that didn't know you have to clean under them. They were packed full of lint and dirt, even stalling the condenser fan. And you would always see a burnt spot on the floor. Surprised they don't label that.

I counted over 86 fans in my home and workshop all for heat cooling, I feel at times my computer is a better air cleaner than a computer, gosh the dust builds up fast in there.

Bigchris on Tue November 25, 2003 1:08 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: NickD
In running Cat 5 cable through my cold air returns, was wondering why they don't put filters on the cold air return vents, the hot air ducts are clean, so out came the vacuum cleaner again.
Ease of maintenance. Most people have trouble remembering to change a single filter so the idea is not to have multiples because some would never get changed. My house only needs one central return so the filter is there. If the house needed multiple returns the filter would be at the furnace.

Can I interest you in a can of R134a dust remover to blow your computer out?

Mitch on Tue November 25, 2003 1:31 PM User is offline

My heater filter is on the single return line also.

In the old days, most houses had a supply and return in each room. Now they seem to rely on the gap under the door and the hallway to provide the return.

It seems to work OK.

Bigchris on Tue November 25, 2003 1:45 PM User is offline

There's more than one way to skin a cat. My mother used to live in a house built in the mid 20s that used a gravity convection hot air system. Furnace with huge ducts in the basement and no blower! Warm air rose thru the ducts to heat the upper floors and then sank as it cooled and returned to the basement through a wooden louvered basement door. As far as I know that system is still working fine, with no noise, no drafts and no filters!

NickD on Tue November 25, 2003 3:29 PM User is offline

Those basements were spooky, LOL, they still are, I was looking over mansion type homes in the Duluth area, most were converted with blowers either using natural gas or fuel oil with the coal bins still half full.

Ironically, my first home built in the 50's had a single point cold air return, I added ducting just to the first floor level as this thing was in a cold basement, that cut my heat bill not that it mattered, was only around twelve bucks a month on budget balance. How in the heck with gas at two bits a gallon did the oil companies make out? Still had truck drivers back then saying the oil companies had secret patents on a 50 mpg carburetor, LOL.

Every home since then had an extended plenum system with both hot and cold ducting and they are still using those up here today.

All my hot air ducts have dampers, I found the coldest bedroom, set that a maximum and played with the other for about week cutting them down with all the doors closed for an even temperature. Only did that once, but would like to find a faster way. I leave my blower running at all times on the slowest speed for constant air recirculation, that made a big difference. I designed a simple relay circuit to switch it to Two speed for heat and Fourth speed for air. After 18 years of constant use, I had the furnace apart last summer pulling out the blower to check and oil it, it still looks like new. That constant cycling wears them out quick, ha the centrifugal start switch contacts aren't even discolored yet.

My ducts are galvanized steel, but see this stuff on the home improvement shows some kind of foil coated foam type that all you need is a ulitity knife, I haven't seen that stuff at our local building supply stores.

JEL on Tue November 25, 2003 4:43 PM User is offline

I am amused that if you click on "Today's Posts" you will see that "Beer Refrigerator not cooling!" leads in number of views.

People are rightfully concerned when a list member has beer cooling issues!.

Mitch on Tue November 25, 2003 4:55 PM User is offline

I remember seeing some 2 story plus basement houses constructed in the 50s that had natural circulation hot air heat. The furnace in the basement looked like a hydra.

Nice and quiet, no drafts, but I have read that they are horribly inefficient with a lot of the heat going up the chimney.

Now if we could figure out a way for JEL to pass us one of those beers thru the ether, we could relax for the rest of the day.

Edited: Tue November 25, 2003 at 4:58 PM by Mitch

Stevo30 on Tue November 25, 2003 5:49 PM User is offline

I live in a suburb of St. Paul/Minneapolis in a house that was built in 1911. The original heating was done by coal fired space heaters. I know this since we took down one of the chimneys during a recent kitchen remodel and it was filled with chokingly fine coal dust. Then sometime in the distant past, a gravity central furnace was installed - probably oil fired. I know this because of the 6' clean circle on the basement floor in the furnace room and the 12" diameter spiral pipe ductwork to the main floor. The second story was still heated only by gravity feed through the floor registers in the second story floors. Finally, a gas furnace (about 60% efficient) was installed sometime before I bought the house in 1990 with ductwork added to the second story. I finally upgraded the furnace to a 96% condensing furnace with central air as part of the kitchen remodel. Eliminated the chimney and vented the furnace through a 2" PVC pipe. It is amazing to see how much water is condensed from the flue gases.

The interesting thing is that with all of the upgrades to the furnace and insulation of the house, I've been able to drop the furnace down from a 125,000 to 80,000 BTU/hr size and still have a warm house and much lower gas consumption. Ain't technology wonderful!!!

BTW, remember that beer is cheaper than therapy...


Stevo30

NickD on Tue November 25, 2003 11:50 PM User is offline

Seems ashamed to burn anything when it's quite hot just a few hundred feet below ground level, even more ashamed when it's hotter than hell in Arizona. Yesterday morning with the windchill factor kicked in, we dropped to -5*F, darn that was cold, had to put a shirt on to take out the garbage. We need a pipe line to Arizona so we can cool it to 120*F in the winter months. Tim can always put on a fur coat at those low temperatures.

How come the Vikings need a heated stadium to play in, can't they freeze their cans off like the Packers do? That Lake Michigan air is extra cold.

calairematt on Wed November 26, 2003 11:37 AM User is offlineView users profile

BTW, remember that beer is cheaper than therapy...

I haven't priced out therapy yet but my beer tab is my best credit reference... hell budwiser sent me a credit card for the holidays.

-------------------------
Matt

Independent shop parts and airconditioning specialist.

Stevo30 on Wed November 26, 2003 12:01 PM User is offline

We've got a talk show host here in the Twin Cities that calls himself the Mayor and Fireworks Commissioner of a mythical town called Garage Logic. It's located in Gumption County. His nemesis is the adjoining town of Euphoria. The GLers believe in all things hydrocarbon powered. The Euphorians, of course, believe in protecting Our Mother the Earth and the creatures that inhabit the forest floor by opposing anything that is hydrocarbon powered. Their great innovation is the Slowmobile. It's an environmentally friendly single cylinder, governor controlled snowmobile. Also believe in helmets for any activity that might cause potential injury. Like putting on your shoes or walking down the street, for example...

GL is basically good 'ol common sense and usually is discussed and administered from the garage. And, of course, a well equipped garage has to include a well stocked refrigerator.

That was why I got so concerned about JEL's problem. A guy can get along without air conditioning in his car, but it's a honest to Gosh crisis when the beer gets warm... Especially Bud!!! Bleh!!! Life is too short to spend it drinking cheap beer.


Stevo30


BTW, Nick, the Vikings have a heated stadium but it hasn't seemed to improve their play. Everybody here was cheering like mad when they beat the Lions. Not much to brag about, IMO. We're again in the thick of the "build me a stadium" wars here with both Cities and the State getting involved throwing out team welfare proposals. The Twins and Vikings remind me of my two Labs. One wants whatever the other seems to have. And both of them want to be wherever they aren't. If they are outside they want inside. If they are inside, they want outside. Only one losing is me who has to run the door...

JEL on Wed November 26, 2003 12:51 PM User is offline

Here is a link to a site that will be much appreciated by this crowd:

The World's First Jet Powered Beer Cooler

NickD on Wed November 26, 2003 1:08 PM User is offline

You can buy cold beer at the Packer stadium, and at this time of the year, damn cold beer.

Minnesota needs a stadium tax, otherwise the Vikings will end up in Florida where they had the foresight to build a better stadium.

Ironically the British like warm beer and we like ice tea.

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