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Honda ATF Pages: 12

UK Tech on Fri November 07, 2003 5:01 PM User is offline

Year: 1999
Make: Honda
Model: Odyssey
Engine Size: 2.3

I'm about to change the transmission fluid on the Honda. The glovebox manual says only use genuine Honda ATF or Dexron III, but the workshop manual says stick to genuine, and only use dexron III if no genuine available, then swap back to genuine.

The 25 litre drum of Dexron III I have doesn't say it meets any Honda specifications, so I'm not sure if it's safe to use. Honda, of course only do it in 1 litre size, at twice the price of dexron. What do you guys reckon, safe to use dexron III or not?

NickD on Fri November 07, 2003 9:58 PM User is offline

My experiences with Hondas and ATF dictate to use nothing but Honda ATF, if you put in anything else the your head will be banging on the windshield whenever it shifts gears, and it is rather troublesome to complete drain all the contaminated fluid out, flush it and start over from scratch. I know what the manual says, I talked this over with old Honda mechanics and they verified the same thing. Also use Honda power steering, AC, and brake fluid or you will have seal leaking problems. This advice is worth at least a cup of coffee.

Mitch on Fri November 07, 2003 10:43 PM User is offline

I have never owned a Honda, but I use Dexron III in everything I own or have owned in the recent past, including Toyotas.

One bottle of Valvoline Dexron III/Mercon in my shop has a label that states, among other approvals:

Approved for use in GM, Honda, Mazda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, and other import vehicles requiring a Dexron III specification.

If it is true that Honda has their own magic potions in all their fluid systems, that is one more reason not to own one.

NickD on Fri November 07, 2003 11:09 PM User is offline

The sticker price on my new Cavalier and a new Civic comparably equipped was nearly identical. Ha, the only reason why I chose the Cavalier is that I got $9100.00 in rebates where the Civic was offering zero. In five years time that Civic is still going to have a high resale value, they are good cars. I am not spooked by wives tales about using certain fluids in a vehicle, but am spooked by using nothing but Honda fluids in a Honda. I could toss anything in my Nissans or Toyotas, namebrand stuff of course with no problems.

My dealer charged the same price for Honda fluids as my Fleet Farm store that handles many top name brand fluids at discount prices, so I wouldn't have saved a cent by using anything else. I do not have any Honda's left here but have bottles of PS, Brake, and ATF fluid left over, all Honda name brand.

Ironically that little Civic is a hot little car for some major souping up if you go for that sort of thing, tons of aftermarket equipment for it. I am not disappointed with my Cavalier and enjoy having that difference in my bank account rather than in Hondas pocket. It's possible that in the last couple of years or so, Honda has become more mainstream, but at the expense of ruining some major seals and if the price for Honda fluids is the same, why risk it?

Some Honda dealers are crooks, I think UKtech found one if they are asking twice the price.

Edited: Fri November 07, 2003 at 11:10 PM by NickD

Mitch on Fri November 07, 2003 11:20 PM User is offline

Honda ATF on the internet is $4.00 qt and they are bragging about the price. I get my name brand Dexron III-G at the chains when on sale for about 99 cents.

I put a 1985 Honda Aero 50cc scooter engine together today for a friend, and a piston, rings and a few gaskets were over $100. Probably more than the scooter is worth, but It was scrap without fixing it. More gold plated Honda parts. The tiny circlips for the piston pin were $2.40 ea.

I priced a 2002 Accord and with the dealer's packs, they wanted over $30K out the door. I bought a similarly sized and equipped Olds for $19.5K and it came with a 5/60 warranty. The Olds has 22K miles on it and has never been back for any warranty work. I see an awful lot of Honda AC problems here.

How about this ATF?

Multi-vehicle ATF

Edited: Fri November 07, 2003 at 11:56 PM by Mitch

UK Tech on Sat November 08, 2003 5:23 AM User is offline

Thanks guys.

This is from that quaker link:- Quaker State® Multi-Vehicle ATF is recommended for use in Chrysler, Honda/Acura, Toyota, Nissan, VW/Audi, BMW, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Mercedes-Benz, Saturn, and Jeep. It is suitable for use in most automatic transmission vehicles including those made by General Motors, Ford (except those requiring M2C33F or Type F fluids), American Motors, Nissan, Subaru, Isuzu, Fiat, Audi, Alfa Romeo, Renault and Porsche. It is recommended for automatic transmissions made by Voith, ZF (commercial), and Daimler-Chrysler Europe. In addition, Quaker State® Multi-Vehicle ATF can function as a Caterpillar TO-2 lubricant.

It's interesting that the first sentence says recommended for use in Honda/Acura, then the second sentence says suitable for use in 'most' a/t's, but fails to mention Honda. The third sentence then states different a/t manufacturers, but again no mention of Honda, or indeed Aisin-warner.

I was talking to a Jeep garage the other day, and they've had a number of failures as people have used non-mopar fluid, and it has to be mopar as it is unique due to it's non-foaming properties. But the quaker list doesn't mention this either.

Honda also recommend only Honda DOT3 or 4 brake fluid. But I thought DOT4 was DOT4 wherever it came from? Guess I need to get some of that too.

We never get much of a deal on japanese spares prices as there's just no competition over here. Hardly anyone offers OEM parts, except a few service items, so you're stuck with the dealer and they all work from the same price list. My Landcruiser 80 needs a new steering box, and Toyota want £2000 for one, with no rebuilt option. I've tried every rebuilder I can find, but none keep any on the shelf, so the options are limited. Had the same with the radiator. Rebuilder could never fix it properly, so went back to the dealer, and they wanted the old one back, or a surcharge, just so they could throw it in the bin and stop it getting into the hands of the rebuilders.

NickD on Sat November 08, 2003 7:13 AM User is offline

Honda is a different kind of car company, much more so than the Saturn, LOL. For a span of time all of my brother and sisters, their kids, my kids, and me were driving Hondas. I thought I was a mechanic until I started doing things to a Honda and had a lot of learning to do, but we all loved our Hondas. I could get any part for a Honda at the dealer, all OE stuff cheaper than any chain store that sold poor rebuilt stuff. If I wanted a seal for a rack and pinion, I could buy that seal rather than pay a domestic dealer huge bucks for a so called rebuilt rack and pinion just to get that one seal or even the boot.

There isn't a Honda left in the family anymore, my 86 Civic I believe is the last one, but that's me, other family members had 95's up to a 98 if I recall and would trade off a lot quicker than me. For one thing was the price of a new Honda, ha, you couldn't even buy one for the sticker price let alone get a discount, the dealers were adding junk aftermarket accessories to jack up the prices. Forget year end sales, they didn't have any cars left. Honda does not have a suggested retail price for parts and some dealers were insane about parts costs or the typical, you can't buy that one seal or whatever, finding a good dealer for parts was a challenge, I did find one 125 miles from me with over a 50% savings than my two locals.

They are good cars, but not that good, brakes, exhaust, suspension parts do wear out, the transmissions were indestructible as were the head gaskets and they did not use those one time head bolts so typical in domestic cars with the aluminum heads. They also get pretty well banged up if hit. And they do rust out to nothing. The interiors are very poor compared to domestic cars, just dry rot to nothing, but they still start, run, and get you there. Got a bit tired though of changing timing belts. After what I paid for a brand new Cavalier, that same amount of money would have gotten me a 97 Civic with over 100K miles on the clock and that was after a lot of shopping and dealing, so goodbye to Honda.

I stay away from European cars perhaps for the same reason you have a Honda, don't like getting nailed to the wall for a part nor having to wait two months to get it and I feel Bosch is making junk, European rubber and aluminum is terrible, the weather stripping cracks and turns to dust, doors leak water and windows fall out, taking apart an alternator or a starter is impossible, a solid block of corrosion. I am cussing at our Bravada, but the parts are dirt cheap here, it's the labor that is murder on that thing, but that is our way of relieving tension by cussing and getting some exercise. Seventeen bucks for an all brass heater core, a couple of bucks for all new valve seals, three bucks for the oil adapter seal kit, 40 bucks for the cat back exhaust system, 18 cents for the electronic dash converter transistor so it will light up again and about the same price for the ABS computer driver transistor.

UK Tech on Sat November 08, 2003 8:23 AM User is offline

Hey Nick, you're up early, don't you like to sleep?

I just got back from the Honda dealer. When I asked him for ATF, he came out with non-honda stuff. He reckoned that's the only stuff you can get, as he doesn't have a part# for genuine stuff.

I've found a genuine part# from an american store, but the dealers parts dept. shut now (they don't want to stay open for parts just in case it's convenient for someone, but they'll happily sell you a car all hours of the day and night).

The part# I got is for a quart, but what's a quart? I'm assuming it's a quarter of a US gallon. Our gallons are 8 pints, or 4.5 litres, but your gallon is smaller, so does that make your pints smaller as well? Maybe you have smaller pints so you drink less beer, as I heard you guys can't handle too much real beer!

NickD on Sat November 08, 2003 8:43 AM User is offline

I checked my cabinet and have two brand new quarts left of Honda ATF, it's one US quart and is also marked 946 ml. I would pull the AT plug every 30,000 miles or so, give or take a couple of miles and drain about 2-2.5 quarts and pour that amount back in using the dip stick with a hot engine as the final reference. Was easier than changing engine oil, Honda did not use a filter in their transmissions. I recall paying around $1.25 per quart from Honda. I was not as fussy with the MT, just using straight 10W-30 weight Quaker engine oil, that was also easy to drain and refill with a genuine drain plug, but that didn't have a dipstick so just followed the manual for quantity.

I normally get up at 5:00 AM, but I am afraid I am not a consumer of alcoholic beverages, I only have one good brain cell left and don't want to fry that. My German relatives have disowned me as I don't like beer, matter of fact, I am allergic to it. But I am thinking of smoking crack to learn if I can enjoy my kids favorite music and think like the current breed of automotive engineers, politicians, and leaders of the EPA. Hell, if you can't beat em, join em as they say.

Mitch on Sat November 08, 2003 9:45 AM User is offline

I can't find any spec for the Honda ATF. Everybody else either has their owm spec or uses one of the existing ones.

With the brake fluid they are using DOT specs, so why should Honda branded brake fluid be different?

BTW, the over $30K Honda and the less than $20K Olds had similar MSRPs. Hondas always seem to go up from MSRP while the others go down. The 70s and 80s Civics rusted away even in California.

My son claims that there is a "code of silence" amongst Honda owners to downplay any problems that they may be experiencing.

Edited: Sat November 08, 2003 at 9:54 AM by Mitch

NickD on Sat November 08, 2003 10:38 AM User is offline

I can tell you, if you don't use Honda brake fluid, you will have leaks, ha, also forgot to mention the belts, I compared physically a new Gates belt with the Honda OE, physically identical, but man did that Gates belt squeak where the Honda was dead quiet. With the carbed Hondas, was a positive nightmare to troubleshoot a rough engine running problem, LOL, rough engine, the darn thing wouldn't run at all, spent two days chasing down a problem testing everything, heck it took a half a day just to remove the air cleaner. A valve at the base of the carb was sticky screwing up the mixture, cleaned that and it ran like a champ

I agree there is a myth about Hondas, but my parts costs was very low, but extremely labor intensive, but aren't most cars that way today? My dealer was charging $700 to change a $17.00 timing belt fifteen years ago.

I thought it was neat that Honda was running all fuel and brake lines inside the rocker panel to protect them from rust, until the rocker panel rusted away. Positively not worth the effort to replace them. The Honda brakes had to be kept clean and well lubricated with brake grease, the shim kits cost almost as a new car, could never find a good price on those and kept those well greased for that piece of tin, never had that kind of problem with domestic brakes, was a yearly job here and I suppose it's the same in the UK according to the rust reports our English friends have offered.

Mitch on Sat November 08, 2003 10:41 AM User is offline

Do they make Honda Gasoline? Seems like they are real Prima Donnas.

NickD on Sat November 08, 2003 10:49 AM User is offline

LOL.

UK Tech on Sat November 08, 2003 1:12 PM User is offline

I've got to do a service on it on monday, and having a look through the parts, they come from all over the place.

Cambelt is Gates, and made in England (didn't think we made anything anymore)
Balancer shaft belt is Gates, and made in USA (didn't think you guys made anything anymore!)
Plugs are NGK made in Japan
Oil filter is made in France
Fuel filter is made in Japan

With my other (and previous) cars I always suck out the ATF through the filler, and then put the same amount back in, at every oil change. ATF is cheap enough, unless you use Honda stuff, for it not to be a problem.

NickD on Sat November 08, 2003 2:18 PM User is offline

I was told the reason why they don't put drains on AT's is to force you to change the filter, you are only changing a fraction of it anyway unless you power flush the system with new ATF. Once in awhile I will remove the lower radiator hose and drop that in a container and use the AT pump for the power, same works with the PS, but good to remove the return line, course removing the high pressure line shoots the fluid across town someplace, so you don't have to take the container to the recycling place.

TRB on Sat November 08, 2003 2:29 PM User is offlineView users profile

Our good friends over at BAT Auto suggest using only the Honda approved fluid. Not that one is better than the other! More of a concern with Honda if there is a problem down the road!

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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

MrBillPro on Sat November 08, 2003 2:37 PM User is offlineView users profile

Does Honda require you to use their own Freon also?

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Don't take life seriously... Its not permanent.

TRB on Sat November 08, 2003 2:42 PM User is offlineView users profile

Man you really want to create a mess!!!

PS: You work for the EPA or what??????????????

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

Mitch on Sat November 08, 2003 3:30 PM User is offline

Maybe the engine needs Honda air. You could keep it in a bottle in the trunk, maybe liquified to get a little more range.

NickD on Sat November 08, 2003 3:33 PM User is offline

I always used Honda AC oil, but never had problems with DuPont R-12, I would do more than recommend sticking with Honda fluids, from my experience, if you use anything else, you are going to get a leak plus bad performance. It's a shame UKtech has to pay twice the price, but in the long or even short run well worth the extra money.

UK Tech on Sat November 08, 2003 4:51 PM User is offline

Oh no, I did the a/c the other day and didn't use Honda refrigerant or PAG!

In 4 years it has only lost about 80 grammes of refrigerant. So today I sprayed a liberal helping of anti-rust wax around the condensor where the steel mounting frame touches the alluminium coil, to try and keep the refrigerant in for a bit longer. Also moved a vacuum hose where it was touching the HS line, you only need something like that and you've got a hole in no time. Put some mesh in front of it also, don't want to give honda any more money than I already have.

NickD on Sun November 09, 2003 9:55 AM User is offline

One subtle advantage of an AC equipped vehicle is that the condenser acts as a shield to protect the radiator from flying road stones. You can still get there without air, but won't go very far with your coolant all over the road.

Adding mesh in front of the radiator or the condenser with these new fangled vehicles is not a new idea, it was a very popular add on accessory and even factory equipped vehicles made in the 20's and early 30's to help prevent road stones from smashing the front of the very exposed front mounted radiators. Back then, besides being just a radiator, it was also the front end of the hood, and they were very heavy and made of thick brass. But were still subject to leak damage caused by flying stones, particularly on the mostly gravel roads back then.

Adding some kind of screening to today's aluminum foil thickness condensers is a good idea, but not original, I have been doing that for years. Perhaps some automotive engineer will look back at history and realize those old guys already came up with a solution to the flying stone problem. We have road gravel on the sides of our many roads, and it should stay there providing the guy ahead of you can keep his truck with those stubby stone picking up tires on the road. But not too many can do that and you pay dearly for that.

bohica2xo on Sun November 09, 2003 8:33 PM User is offline

I have had many a good laugh at the honda cult, and this thread just adds to it - thank guys!

I really enjoy hearing a local honda owner gush about the "great relationship" he has with the dealer...... he must be the one on the bottom!
I have to stop and think about the location of the local Ford dealer - I sure don't have a "relationship" with them! Knowing the service manager by name is NOT a good thing, unless he is your next door neighbor.

A quick trip to the local Pick-A-Part tells a real story. All of the hondas are picked clean, as are most of the other JapMobiles - engines, transmissions, suspensions, interiors, etc. Bare carcasses in short order. If you look at the same model year range in other makes?

Taurus - transmissions, almost always gone. The rest of the car is mostly intact, an occasional engine is removed.

Thunderbird - Driveline usually intact, some accessories missing. Interiors about half gone. About 30% of the 5.0 cars missing the intake manifold, I suspect to hot rodders.

Celebrity - Waterpump / idler / power steering pump missing on half of them. and occasional engine or transmission. The usual interior plastic parts.

Caviler- Various bits and pieces of the EFI and engine controls group usually missing. An occasional cylinder head. A few axle assemblies.

Usually if you walk past 6 similar cars there is enough parts to put one back together if you had to. When you walk past the honda row, you could NOT make a car with all 12 of them! Perhaps more honda owners turn to the junk yard due to higher part prices? Every make seems to have it's weak point (Taurus transmissions for example) but the hondas are missing virtually every moving part!

Nick, I know you loved your honda, but I think you got a better car in the deal.

Mitch:
"Honda Air"..... I am still laughing! Maybe that is how all the MBZ diesel owners get the 60 mpg they claim....

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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Sun November 09, 2003 8:56 PM User is offline

My Honda was dirt cheap transportation, probably the best thing I liked about it.

Are you saying,

"the feces is feces the world around, only the flies are different"

Well not exactly the word feces, but one that has the same meaning, LOL

Mitch on Sun November 09, 2003 9:02 PM User is offline

Bohica,

Funny you should mention the Honda owners relationship with their service managers. I have seen the same thing. There are some owners who will say "Oh the head gasket (or fill in the blank _____) blew, but they were sooo nice down at the dealership. The fixed me right up. The car is running like a top now".

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