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Middle East Crisis Pages: 12

NickD on Sat April 17, 2004 7:10 AM User is offline



It makes a guy wonder how Iraq can be a free democratic nation when surrounded by Syria and Iran, under Saddam, we supplied Iraq weapons to keep the Iranians under control. Last night it was reported that over 30,000 Iranians are crossing the boarder into Iraq to help the anti-democratic Iraquians wage war against our troops. They don't know how many are coming over from Syria. On the east border of Iran, we have 13,000 troops in Afghanistan. While are relationship with Egypt was been rocking, Lybia has been termed a terrorist supporting nation.

To the north of Iran has been a hot spot during the Clinton administration with our troops in Bosnia.

The eleven OPEC nations are Algeria, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, and Venezuela that supply 40% of the world's oil. The most recent hotspot is Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, the president is not very popular with his own people, was elected in 1999 to help the poor people but already caused 500% inflation in that country. He is a follower of Fidel Castro that is another situation we haven't been able to resolve in the last 45 years and wants to wage a 100 year war against the USA. We can see by that list of OPEC nations that many are not our friends.

It seems way overly optimistic that President Bush's claim of turning the government over to Iraq in the next month. How is this depressed nation going to defend itself against Syria and Iran without even an army now? We are given the impression that once Saddam is gone, everything will be okay, it is not. Ben is another example, but the analysis he is only a figure head, if he is captured or killed, the next guy will take his place.

I don't understand politics at all, under Eisenhower and Truman, China and Korea were the hot spots, my brother spent two years of his life guarding the 38th parallel, we have troops there doing the same thing 54 years later. JFK, Johnson, and Nixon was Viet Nam with a touch of Cuba thrown in there that got me extended on active duty for over a year. Things were quite with Ford, mostly Saturday Night Live jokes, but when Carter came in, Iran was the hotspot, that seem to have died with Reagan and suddenly we were having lots of problems in Latin American countries unit Bush came in, then it was back to Iraq. Under Clinton, former USSR nations were the hotspots, but under the new Bush, suddenly Iraq is a major problem again, and this one looks like it's going to go on for years.

With the advent of the internet, we now have the opportunity to chat with the common people of practically all these nations, most are hard working and just trying to put food on the table, they don't want to screw us, and we don't want to screw them, but we try to help each other. The oppressed people of these dictatorship nations that we consider our enemies are really being hurt by their own governments. At times, it seems we should take all the leaders of the world, put them on a ship in the middle of the Pacific ocean, and pull the drain plug. History Channel reports that this secret hotel society, and other groups like the Skulls are determining the fate of billions. I don't know whether this is true or not, but it seems like it is sure worth looking into.

According to the news last night, our troops cleaned up about 1/3rd of Fallajah, then were told to stop and we lost 100 good marines over the last two weeks we many more wounded. They never say much about wounded, but wonder if any of these guys will spend the rest of their lives in a stinky underfunded VA hospital, and they are the lucky ones?

Edited: Sat April 17, 2004 at 7:18 AM by NickD

Squidward on Sat April 17, 2004 11:51 PM User is offlineView users profile

The ordinary hard working people you speak of do exist all over the world. However, it is the unemployed radicals who don't have jobs or families to support who seem to stir up the most trouble. I was reminded of this the other day when I saw pics from a peace rally in San Fran. It made me wonder how these people could afford to take off work to spend a full day being a worthless clod and drain on society. That's when I realized "Hey - that's what these people do every day!". Most hardworking people share very similar views, regardless of religious views or country they live in. They don't have time to be a liberal loudmouth - too much daily bread to earn.

Iraq is being infiltrated by its neighbors in droves. Al Sadr was trained in Iran. Iranian agents have outright admitted involvement in Iraqi affairs. Iraq's neighbors DO NOT want any kind of western styled society and/or democracy next door to them. The influence would undermine the power base in their own countries, and might have a chance of releasing Islam's stranglehold grip on the middle east that keeps them stuck in the middle ages. People are easier to rule when they are subjected to an oppressive revolutionary theocracy - who wouldn't be? They are constantly being forced to choose between pi$$ing off their rulers (and getting arms or heads chopped off!!!) or pi$$ing off their god.

I can't believe, tho, that our military is actually carrying out negotiations in Fallujah. The only negotiation should be surrender or die!

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"It ain't easy bein' cool..."

Karl Hofmann on Sun April 18, 2004 6:09 AM User is offlineView users profile



I can't believe, tho, that our military is actually carrying out negotiations in Fallujah. The only negotiation should be surrender or die!




Good solution!

This fits in nicely with current US policy, Do as you are told or be shot, bombed, or have your aid removed. A shining example of democracy if ever there was.

You are right that the devil finds work for idle hands, well I have a suggestion, pay them to do some work, thus giving them something to do, they could do something usefull to build their own country and the money that they make gives them a financial stake in the future. It has been the policy of the British forces to pay local people to do many jobs, it worked well in Croatia and it does seem to work for us in the South of the country.

No matter how repugnant you find a regime, it is always better to talk to them and arrive at a negotiated settlement, otherwise you send out the message to the rest of the population that you are only interested in imposing a dictatorial regime, who will quickly become victim of an Islamic revolution and Iraq will quickly become a training ground and supporter for international terrorism in a way that the old regime wasn't . Hey presto OWN GOAL!

I know that Tim is a little unsure of the UN but surly neutral UN troops would be better in Iraq working to stabilise the country rather like IFOR, SFOR and KFOR did in the balkans.

Just as a point of interest you state that the countries that surround Iraq are worried about the US having a strong foothold right on their borders. Well how did the US react when a communist power got a foothold in one of the US's neighbours? We were all close to becomming toast!


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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

NickD on Sun April 18, 2004 6:43 AM User is offline

Maybe I don't understand the UN, it was on the news that several of those UN guys, whatever title they bring with them were bribed by Saddam. Bush doesn't go to the UN everyday, but he runs this country and sends some guy to represent him that is suppose to act in behalf of what our leadership wants, however in the heck that works.

Now if this guy were bribed by anyone not to act in favor of what his country wants, you would think he would be fired, or at least his actions would be obvious. I mean if it was the will of the leadership in France or Germany to stop terrorism by invading Iraq with the sole purpose of dumping Saddam, but their representative in the UN, says no like our news implied and France and Germany are out of the picture because this representative went against the will of his country, you would think he would be canned and this situation would be corrected. In this light, the UN is a farce, and why do we have to deal with corrupted representatives? Maybe Saddam bribed the entire leadership of these countries, that would make more sense.

Look at the occupation of Germany and that 45 year old Berlin wall, we got rid of Hitler in a hurry, but didn't exactly turn the leadership over to the "good" German people in under a year. This whole concept of turning the leadership over to Iraq in this short time frame sounds like science fiction. I also heard on the news where this Iraq situation has many Brits about ready to hang Tony that would leave the US standing alone in Iraq if that happens.

One wild solution would be to make Iraq the 51st state, that we should have done with Italy, Turkey, Cuba, France, Germany, and Japan, least this way, when we send money there, the IRS would go over and get 75% of it back, no one messes with the IRS. This would greatly ease the burden on the US hardworking citizens. Just about any country we saved sooner or later turned against us, we did support Saddam, why would their new government be any different?

Karl Hofmann on Sun April 18, 2004 8:06 AM User is offlineView users profile

Ha! The newspapers told us that the MP George Galloway was on Saddams payrollbecause he had the gumption to get off his butt and go to Iraq and see for himself what was what, he returned and advocated a far softer approach to Iraq than was popular. Despite the fact that the press don't have a good reputation where facts are concerned, we believed them. He was shunned, spat at and cast out from Mr Blairs Labour Party, all because we wanted this war, so badly we could taste the blood. Well Mr Galloway was found innocent, and is now taking legal action against the news papers in question.

The danger is that we will try to make Iraq in our own image, just because our systems work for us, is it not arrogant for us to assume that it will work for them, especially if it is imposed.

I was interested to hear the comments of many folk on the Jeremy Vine show. Many of those who had wanted the war now wished to pull out, and many of those who had been against it want to stay and repair the mess that we have made.

Even when we hand over power, we'll be there for a long time to come.

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

mkhatami on Sun April 18, 2004 10:44 AM User is offline

I'm from Iran and I know that those mullah's in Iran will never let a democratic government take hold in Iraq. That would spell their doom. They fought for 70 years, under the Shah and his father, to achieve this and they would not stop from killing any number of people necessary to protect what they have. Anything that would weaken their position is extremely threatening to them because they know they're walking on very thin ice with the Iranian people and the slightest weakness would embolden the people to take the power back.

I think President Bush should have taken care of the mullahs in Iran before Saddam. The mullahs are the real instigators and supporters of terror in the region and world. They claim to have God on their side and the young and the ignorant believe that and would fight to the last drop of blood and that makes the mullahs very dangerous.

For peace to have a chance in the Middle-East and in the world, all the hostile dictatorships and exporters of terror in the region (Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia) must fall first. Without their support, the terrorist groups who do the actual dirty work would wither and die.

God bless America, president Bush, our soldiers and all peace-loving people

NickD on Sun April 18, 2004 10:55 AM User is offline

LOL, you Brits are kind of a stubborn people effectively putting an end to the growth of the Roman Empire back around 100 AD or so. Iran has been a trouble spot since around 1977, is a bit more to deal with than Iraq with over three times the population. Syria is not as great a problem with 75% of the population as Iraq, but somehow Lybia is also noted for terrorist camps as well as Egypt. That entire area is a hotspot, and Iraq is a very small compared to these other nations. But yet, Israel is hanging in there as one of the smallest countries both land and population wise.

Both the Jewish and the Islams claim the same exact heritage that sounds weird with only minor differences, but must be more of a cultural difference that is traditional rather than fact.

Truman did back away from South Korea with threats from the Chinese, ha, our friends in need during WW II, five years later, our enemies. But I wonder if we can use the same peace terms with the Islams, or Arabs? This could be WW III.

Karl Hofmann on Sun April 18, 2004 1:20 PM User is offlineView users profile

LOL, My god doesn't believe in me.

Mkhatami, I think that you are right, to use a populations belief in god to keep a man in power so that they can do wrong is abhorrent. I believe that religeon is the most fundamental basis for rule of law, a pattern for life. These mullahs who call for death and destruction wield the words of your scriptures as a magic sword and see themselves higher than their own God

There are many non democratic islamic countries with happy and well cared for citizens who contribute in a positive way, their attitude is tolerant to us and we are tolerant of them.

The differences between Muslim and Jew are so lost in the mists of time that no man can remember what is was all about and the only know that they hate each other and must maintain the cycle of hatred in honour of those long dead. Things are not helped by the backing that Israel gets from, yes you guessed it. Withdraw the backing and there would have to be dialogue..eventually

Nick,

Spend one winter in Cumbria in a windowless villa, after living in southern Italy and you would understand why the Romans gave up and went home.

I think that if we do handle Iraq badly we could have problems for some time to come, our leaders just dont understand how to deal with the situation



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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

TRB on Sun April 18, 2004 3:11 PM User is offlineView users profile

Now is about religion! What happened to it being about the US having all the money!!!! And why are wonderful leaders in Iraq now taking and killing hostages from countries that did not even back the US and its allies???? I have watched a good share of news this weekend and why have I not seen one UN worker in any news clip?? I have been told they are the answer but do they put feet on the ground or only work from their US paid suite at the UN offices????

Man you guys sure know how to mix a fellow up!!!!!


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NickD on Sun April 18, 2004 5:28 PM User is offline

What's so confusing, a handful of terrorist fly some of airplanes into some buildings, we think Saddam is behind it, he is a bad guy anyway so we capture him, form a democracy in Iraq and our troops will be home in about six weeks, end of story.

Karl and I also watch the "news" and like the news people, we like to speculate, it's not politically correct anymore to present the facts, as a matter of fact, it's boring, so we speculate just like these news people do.

Neither Karl or I know what in the hell we are talking about, but we enjoy imitating the news that don't know what the hell they are talking about either, can't we have any fun on this board? Besides, if our leaders can contradict themselves, why can't we?

TRB on Sun April 18, 2004 6:09 PM User is offlineView users profile

NO NO NO President Bush never said Saddam was behind the planes being flown in the WTC. He said that Saddam was a "SPONSER" of terror!

I know your just busting on me Nick and its okay I can handle it! I think its kind of funny to see Kerry saying he is telling us the truth and Bush is arrogant. Anyone see Kerry talk to someone that does not play the party line. I don't care what party someone is from but it sure would be nice to a election where the people are the real concern!!!!

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NickD on Sun April 18, 2004 9:04 PM User is offline

At times I feel our ALCU is doing a better job of harboring terrorists that what Saddam was doing. Many countries are harboring terrorists including our neighbors to the north. I am by no means defending Saddam, but we did effectively put him there and mostly to keep the Iranians under control, that kind of backfired as many things do. Our airports can't even profile an Arab without fear of being sued, but God help you if you are a 65 year old white man with a cane, you will be searched to death.

We didn't enlist the aid of the UN before going into Iraq, even went against their wishes, why should we fool with them now?

TRB on Sun April 18, 2004 9:55 PM User is offlineView users profile

My issue with the UN is that they pass a resolution and never do anything to back them up. I ask what kind of policy is that! I see now where they may have stopped a chemical attack in Jordan which could have killed 20,000 people. New reports here in the US that we may see the same kind of attacks here as happened in Madrid. The world seems to becoming a real shitty place. It's a dog eat dog issue anymore. So I guess if that's the case right or wrong its us or them. 20,000 people could have been killed in just a few minutes not because of a religion or money or anything else. The only reason was out right hate for another human!

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Anonymous on Mon April 19, 2004 3:02 AM User is offline

The Iraqi people are currently under the sovereignty of the US and therefore are under the protection of the US government. That makes them "GWB's people" until sovereignty is returned to the nation of Iraq.

How many troops is it going to take to protect ALL of GWB's people and when is that going to happen?

Are the Iraqis REALLY better off now then they were a year ago or has the regime change actually caused more thousands of dead and injured Iraqis than would have occurred under Saddam?

If Iraq was the 51st state would THEY vote for Bush's re-election?

NickD on Mon April 19, 2004 7:00 AM User is offline

Maybe we tend to rationalized reasons for this behavior of these so-called extreme religious groups that are willing to die for their cause expecting gifts from Ali in their acts. They say everyone has their price, how much money would you want to crash an airliner into a skyscraper and what would you do with that cash after that act? In our culture, such an act is inconceivable. In the 50's our military was training Japanese troops that were blended in out unit, but wore their home uniform. They weren't any different than us, were homesick, had girlfriends, ha, even carried nude pictures of them, didn't like the long hours, nor the shots, but just ten short years ago, if they were on Iwo Jima, they would have faced a flame thrower rather than surrender for their emperor, so how do you explain that? They were already ten years old when WW II ended so whatever they did there, their foundation was already ingrained.

How do you explain the holocausts? Was not only Jews that were murdered, but Catholics as well, but only about one million Catholics so that didn't make the headlines. How do you explain when the Nazi's invaded the Soviets or the Japanese invading China, where the rule was no prisoners and every man, woman, and child were murdered?

Maybe there isn't an explanation, but it's no different in these Arab nations, there was a certain amount of honor in WW I where civilians would not be attacked, that honor completely vanished during WW II. But starting with the Viet Nam war, our own troops were court martialed if they would happen to shoot the wrong person, life on our troops is much worse today so we aren't even playing on the same battle field. You know yourself that Bush is taking plenty of heat for every Iraqian civilian that is killed and this is causing even more hatred.

That one UN inspector is now claiming all of Saddams WMD are now in Syria, what are we going to do about that? We should be totally disarming all of Iraq, but how are they going to defend themselves again Iran? It's one hell of a mess, and there are no simple solutions. VN was one hell of a mess and we just got the hell out of there and we are now in an era where the biggest battle is between our military and our politicians. We should return to the old English tradition where the leaders lead the troops into battle and not sit behind a desk in Washington, then maybe the outcome will be different. I don't know and don't feel anyone does.

MrBillPro on Mon April 19, 2004 12:42 PM User is offlineView users profile

Well heck thought i would put my two cents in "just read your Bible" and it will tell you the whole story on this subject and that the fighting will never stop, nor do i personally believe that "no man" will ever be able to stop it and many more lives will be lost on all sides. They did draw first blood so we responded and anyone would probably do, if someone slaps me i am slapping back "unless it's a woman" I do feel if this was a part of God's plan we can't stop it we might slow it a bit but it will go on! as i hope all those who die fighting, that their lives will go on also in a better place.

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Don't take life seriously... Its not permanent.

NickD on Mon April 19, 2004 1:39 PM User is offline

I thought the message of the bible was that God gave us free will, maybe so, but other people try to take that away. Ironically Hitler and Stalin both had alcoholic mothers and were physically abuse children, quite a combination to generate a nut case, such has led to aggressive behavior and how normal people let these guys get in charge is beyond reason. I didn't care to read the biography of Saddam, but apparently he is not the only guy there, but has thousands of loyal followers. Maybe we should bomb the entire area with Prozac, who knows?

Anonymous on Mon April 19, 2004 2:31 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: NickD
I thought the message of the bible was that God gave us free will

That was one of the messages of the Bible, And if we did not have a free will there would really be no need for the Bible, we would all be like robots and he would have the remote control. The Bible is a roadmap for life if we choose to read it and accept it as the word of God, and it has a beginning and an end, I personally accept the beginning and the end and believe it will come to pass and I personally am ready to go, when he calls. I know these days this belief stuff is a touchy subject, but i have no problems with anyone that believes different and I can accept them no problem, I have a neighbor across the street that does not believe in God and we are really good friends, and I respect him for his belief, and he respects me for mine. The other day he was out watering his plants he is a plant nut and has some really nice beautiful ones and I ask him which one of those plant does he figured he came from? he thought that was funny because he always tells me he did not come from no monkey. Guess i got him wondering now how did he get here.

MrBillPro on Mon April 19, 2004 2:33 PM User is offlineView users profile

That was me above! man i hate that anonymous thing.

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Don't take life seriously... Its not permanent.

NickD on Tue April 20, 2004 6:25 AM User is offline

Hamas urges Arabs, Muslims to unite
`We will defeat both the United States, Israel'

Jordanian king postpones meeting with Bush



AL-YARMOUK CAMP, Syria—Hamas political leader Khaled Meshaal yesterday called for an Arab and Muslim alliance to defeat the United States and Israel.

Last month Hugo Chavez, the not so nice president of Venezuela called for another 22 3rd world countries to start a 100 year war with the USA.

Not sure whether to take this serious or not, but something doesn't sound too good and I don't feel while we have the capability with our nuclear power to blow over 1 billion people off the face of this earth, that we can do this without affecting the environment.

What's going on?

Anonymous on Tue April 20, 2004 7:26 PM User is offline

Add the global warming threat and it's time to become a Canadian citizen.

TRB on Tue April 20, 2004 10:18 PM User is offlineView users profile

Heck I was reading that Canada is a hot bed for terrorist groups. Plus really don't care to learn French at this time.

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NickD on Wed April 21, 2004 8:26 AM User is offline

It's no secret that it is far easier to enter Canada from any foreign country than the USA and very easy to cross into the USA in the midwest area, there just ain't nothing up there in my neck of the woods. But there are roads, Bush has requested that the Canadians tighten up a bit, but I don't feel our neighbors to the north really care about that.

Ha, up in Thunder Bay, thousands of Canadians cross the border to buy cheap USA gas, only a couple of blocks, and drive right back. In the 60's, it was the other way around, LOL as Canadian gas was dirt cheap, not that ours was that expensive either.

Mexico is equally as easy and if you decide to make an inner tube raft from Cuba, the INS will even let you stay here without any immigration papers.

Should we build a China kind of wall around the USA? Ha, a parachute with a fan strapped to your back would hop that in an instant.

The whole question revolves around energy and our problems started with OPEC in the early 70's, many scientists realizing that the universe is loaded with energy started looking for other things to use besides oil. And just about everyone of them has been shot down, under funded or attacked as being environmentally unfriendly such as using hydro-electric power for the many rivers that still don't have it, some insect would have to relocate or whatever.

In the 60's and 70's the oil and auto industries were instrumental in removing the railroad infrastructure, now we have millions of people, one in each car loading up the expressways that were built back in the 50's and 60's, we sure made life miserable for ourselves. Now we are spending billions for short tunnels to ease some of this traffic, and why did that brokerage firm need the top two stories of the WTC just to have guys go there to run a PC and use a phone? They can do that anywhere.

We talk about centralized schools, imagine the billions of gallons of fuel used to haul kids back and forth each day?

We lower the speed limits on our expressways when 90% of the stalled traffic is in the city burning billions of gallons of gas with the engines at idle. We are kind of crazy and have an EPA that is forcing the automotive industry to burn a filthy fuel cleanly.

I don't care what anyone says, our present crisis deals with oil, and nothing else, and we don't even need that oil. Just like our oil holes ran dry, so will theirs. What will we do then? And why can't we do that now?

NickD on Wed April 21, 2004 11:28 PM User is offline

On the O'Reilly Factor tonight, they had this gal on giving a dissertation on Muslims killing Muslims, between Syria, Libya, Iran, Iraq and other Arab nations, she talked so fast it was difficult to add up the numbers of people killed by their own people over the last 20 years, but it was in the hundreds of thousands.

So I guess if some of us get killed by this sect of Muslims, we shouldn't take it personally, some of these Muslims just like to kill people and do not discern between man, woman, or child.

Hard to believe in the 14th-18th centuries, Spain was out to conquer the world with the infamous Spanish inquisition and all that, practically all of South American and a huge hunk of North America as well. Maybe they found all the gold they could ever want. Then never even lifted a finger when Hitler invaded them in around 1935, guess we can't expect much different from them today. So will the terrorists pat them on the back and leave them alone now? Or will it be a repeat of WW II and we will have to go in there and bail them out, again. Time will tell, will be interesting as to the outcome. If the terrorists leave them alone, maybe we should do the same, and just sit back and let the terrorists kill themselves.

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