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Apparently some have forgotten...

JJM on Tue May 11, 2004 6:09 PM User is offline

Year: 2001
Make:
Country of Origin: United States

... why we are at war:

http://www.mcduffy-edwards.com/attack.swf

It will take some time to download (7 MB) but is well worth it.

Joe

Chick on Tue May 11, 2004 6:15 PM User is offlineView users profile

I for one will NEVER forget...

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Chick
Email: Chick

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Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

iceman2555 on Sat May 15, 2004 9:26 PM User is offlineView users profile

Thanks to the author. It is a sad day in America when we forget that these people died.....were murdered for no reason other than the desire of a mad man. It is a very sad day when the leaders, Senators and Representatives of the US set aside the needs of this country for there own personal political gains. I am very thankful to God, and yes, I belive in him, that we have a president such as GWB. I have a mental nightmare of what it would be like if Gore or Clinton had been in power when this happened. It is a sad day when we as Americans care for the 'rights' of someone who has set his mind to murder us more than those of the men and women who face our enemies each second of the day. If one of the enemy has to suffer....or die to protect the lives of an American service person.......then it should be so. Let it happen quickly. The treatment of prisoners is a question on many minds today......was it fair...was it horrible....yes..perhaps...however, if it gained important information that prevented the harm to one of our soldiers.....was it worth it? HELL YES.....AND DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO GAIN THAT INFORMATION. Many Americans have no need to know what happens in a war front. The warm...touchy...feely....group cry more for those who would do us harm than those that protect our freedoms. It is enough to turn ones stomach.
I served with pride in the SEAsia war. My position was in military intelligence attached to the American Embassy. Many different techniques are used in gathering information. It is not a 'sit down.....lets have a cup of Starbucks and chat' scenario. It is hard...harsh....painful....and most times very successful.....it is a part of war....war is by nature designed to cause harm...and death to the enemies of ones country.
My heart cries for the men and women of our military that have been harmed or killed because some congressman wanted his 15 minutes of fame. When questions are asked of how and why.....and the enemy sees discord....it offers him an incentive.....I wonder if some of the renewed conflicts in Iraq are the result of the 'fact finding' by our congressmen. GOD BLESS OUR SERVICE PEOPLE AND KEEP THEM SAFE FROM HARM....AND BLESS THIS WONDERFUL COUNTRY WE LIVE IN....LONG MAY SHE LIVE.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

Karl Hofmann on Sun May 16, 2004 6:21 PM User is offlineView users profile

So its OK to oppress in order to maintain liberty and freedom ?

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

poav on Sun May 16, 2004 9:07 PM User is offline

iceman--

God bless "you" for your comments.

if any1 thinks we can sit on our butts and this whole thing (world terrorisum) is going to disappear,
then we are in big trouble. thank God for bush's persistence.

so what's your deal karl?...let it go unchecked until too late and let the US bail the world out
like it happens again and again. who dropped two buildings in the USA and who massacred
7 million innocent people 60 some years ago and who wiped out hundred of thousands of innocent
people in the land where are troups are now trying to stabilize. who always steps up when the
time is crucial and who sits back and criticizes...you know. yea, the USA is arrogant and yea, it's
to our own benifit...give us a break and wake up.

how would you handle the situation, talk to a bunch of totally irrational barbarians and expect a resolution....forget it.


i'm done on this subject but to you iceman...thx again.

robtemple on Sun May 16, 2004 9:19 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: Karl Hofmann
So its OK to oppress in order to maintain liberty and freedom ?

It IS OK to do what ever it takes to maintain liberty & freedom! That is why we here in America are free! Our forefathers did whatever it took to accomplish this. The cost of losing ones liberty & freedom is far greater than whatever it takes to preserve it!

IMHO,

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Rob Temple
Ford/Acura/Hyundai Tech

Karl Hofmann on Mon May 17, 2004 3:24 AM User is offlineView users profile

Rob,

How close to home can this oppression come before it impinges upon YOUR freedom and liberty? Are fines and imprisonment for not carrying a personal ID card OK? How about removing your right to bear arms? Constant road blocks and security checks? Doping your water and food supply to ensure a placid population?.... The possibilities are endless.

Poav,

The US sat on its collective butt for years hoping that terrorists would go away and not bother you, whilst the rest of the world was dealing with it, this is your arrogance. Indeed the US has funded and promoted terrorism against the very guys that are now fighting along side your troops, for years US tax dollars were sent to fund those wonderful "Freedom fighters" in Northern Ireland trying to free the province from those evil and oppressive British, so don't act as if terrorism is something that has just been discovered, it has been going on since the start of time its just that you were too arrogant to realise that it could happen to you. The problem is now you guys are lightyears behind in anti-terrorist measures and have no clue as to what to do about it, so you went back to cold war logic and decided that if you are under attack then you should invade someone, makes great press but lousy logic.

So is it now fair to state that the Land of the free and the home of the brave now advocates oppression, fear and torture to those weaker than yourselves? Is this attitude going to calm the situation or inflame it?


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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

Edited: Mon May 17, 2004 at 4:03 AM by Karl Hofmann

poav on Mon May 17, 2004 7:42 AM User is offline

i guess those "weaker" than us while under the past leadership were not
experiencing oppression, fear and torture...it only becomes an issue when
we are in the process of establishing freedom and democracy. we assume the
"bully" role. no problem in sticking the hand out when monetary aid or protection
from invasion is needed but ask for a little help and all (most) of the "faithful allies"
crawl into a hole. at least Tony Blair had the guts to pitch in. i suppose to some, genocide
is not to be a world concern....let it ride we dont want to inflame the already inflamed,
we might get put on their hit list. the whole world is their hit list including some of their
own.

jihad from its inception in early 6th century is a way of life for many Muslims and even if
Israel did not exist as a state today, the holy war would still be on and highly unlikely
it could be defused across a discussion table. not many options out there that i can see.

Karl Hofmann on Mon May 17, 2004 8:15 AM User is offlineView users profile

How many Arabic states actually have democratic elections? Even the friendly ones have a king, or ruler, trying to force our democratic values on people with a totally different way of thinking (Which most people just don't understand) would be us trying to force our will upon them. If the tables were turned would you buckle down or would you fight for your way of life?.

Even when they have elections what are you going to do when those that have lost refuse to accept the result? Oh and do please bear in mind that since the US is the greatest contributor to Israel, there may be a tad of suspicion that the US may not be entirely impartial.

I am still eager to learn why we needed to invade Iraq in order to deal with Al Quieda, since the links were at best tenuous. what we have done is generated a nice breeding ground for terrorist cells, the tougher that the Iraqis are treated the more terrorists you will generate. Happy and contented people do not become terrorists!

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

MrBillPro on Mon May 17, 2004 8:40 AM User is offlineView users profile

Terrorists are a world problem and will never be completely stopped they are on a mission I think we will all agree on that, I personally think this is the greatest forum on the web and has many members that I personally appreciate and see a lot of integrity in, I hope we can all stay buddies and never let any discussion of any nature break up that relationship. I know this general discussion forum is good, kind of gives us a place to ask other questions and post other thoughts and as long as we can all agree to disagree and still get along and keep the integrity of this site I am all for it.
Have a great day guys!

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Don't take life seriously... Its not permanent.

poav on Mon May 17, 2004 9:13 AM User is offline

amen MrBill-

not mad at any1 i just have a hard time being diplomatic when trying to make a point.

summer coming on soon and lots of folks driving around in hot cars, so how about we
"cool" it for a spell and get back to 'fixen' those a/c units.

TRB on Mon May 17, 2004 10:31 AM User is offlineView users profile

MrBill, its all fine unless you bad mouth Linux. Seen BigChris or K5 lately???


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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

TXAB on Mon May 17, 2004 1:13 PM User is offline

I was wondering about them last night....

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"Don't get stuck on stupid!"
---- Lt. Gen. Russel Honore

Karl Hofmann on Mon May 17, 2004 4:31 PM User is offlineView users profile

LOL

The best way to get your point across is to be blunt. It is good and healthy for us to have such diverse views, and even better that we can state them without us resorting to name calling. Just because I do not agree with a guy does not mean that I am right and he is wrong, I do hope that sometimes a comment that I make causes folk to pause and think.

I'm sure that in years to come we will all be fretting over some new crisis and Iraq will be a distant memory. Any way as has been stated, the heat is on and George and Tony will have to figure it out without our help, unless of course the aircon on the Presidential limmo packs in

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

TRB on Mon May 17, 2004 5:35 PM User is offlineView users profile

You are right Karl, I would have never thought the UN could be so corrupt until you pointed out how good they were!!! Think I could do some a/c for food trade with those guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

Anonymous on Mon May 17, 2004 8:49 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: Karl Hofmann
How many Arabic states actually have democratic elections? Even the friendly ones have a king, or ruler, trying to force our democratic values on people with a totally different way of thinking (Which most people just don't understand) would be us trying to force our will upon them. If the tables were turned would you buckle down or would you fight for your way of life?.



Even when they have elections what are you going to do when those that have lost refuse to accept the result? Oh and do please bear in mind that since the US is the greatest contributor to Israel, there may be a tad of suspicion that the US may not be entirely impartial.



I am still eager to learn why we needed to invade Iraq in order to deal with Al Quieda, since the links were at best tenuous. what we have done is generated a nice breeding ground for terrorist cells, the tougher that the Iraqis are treated the more terrorists you will generate. Happy and contented people do not become terrorists!

The majority of Iraqis desire to have a democracy (which you just don't understand) It's the TERRORISTS, the hard core fanatical Muslims that want to subjugate, oppress, to impose tyranny and prevent the freedoms of the people. Girls in Afghanistan and Iraq now have the freedom to get an education, and go to school, which they were NOT permitted to do before.
And are we/they supposed to lay down, accept defeat, throw in the towel "when those that have lost, refuse to accept the result"?
I wouldn't! As far as the US not being impartial, what's wrong with being partial to democracy?

We didn't dethrone Saddam just because of Al Queda. A scant perusal of the History channel has revealed that Saddam had copious amounts of WMD's. Tons of which he didn't turn over to the inspectors in the '90's. "But where are they"? Who gives a rip!
They used to be in the hands of a maniacal murderer, Saddam Hussein, and now they're NOT thanks to the bravery of our military forces, and the fortitude of our President! What about the hundreds of thousands of his own people in mass graves. etc. etc. etc.... To leave these people (animals) in check, is to allow a perpetual 9/11 !
Again, IMHO

robtemple on Tue May 18, 2004 2:11 AM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
... What about the hundreds of thousands of his own people in mass graves. etc. etc. etc.... To leave these people (animals) in check, is to allow a perpetual 9/11 !

Again, IMHO
Oops, I forgot to login at work and didn't realize I posted as "anonymous".
Though I do understand what you are saying Karl, about the potential of being oppressed by your own government. There is a fine line between ty-ing the hands of the government you expect to protect you, and insisting that they cant go "snoopin' around", and the oppression of "Big Brother" breathing down your back, and watching everyone's move, or worse. I only wish there was an easier way to accomplish this. One thing I'm sure of is, if we bury our heads in the sand and hope it all goes away, it wont. It will get much worse. We must stand firmly for what we believe, and not show any weakness.
May God bless our nation, our troops, and our President.



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Rob Temple
Ford/Acura/Hyundai Tech

MikeH on Tue May 18, 2004 10:24 AM User is offline

The Iraq war has been politicized so much that I think the American public is getting fed up with exagerrated press claims and mis-information. All we seen to hear is stories about atrocities and war crimes. This story is different and needs to get out

MikeH on Tue May 18, 2004 10:24 AM User is offline

The adress didn't make it so here it is again
http://www.naplesnews.com/npdn/pe_columnists/article/0,2071,NPDN_14960_2893459,00.html

Karl Hofmann on Tue May 18, 2004 5:21 PM User is offlineView users profile

Iraqis, like all sane people desire freedom, most of them have heard the word democracy, but would guess that they just dont know what it means. How many of us REALLY know the meaning of the word democracy, and how many of us realise that if we had true democracy then our worlds would grind to a halt.

Governments dont really care about the welfare of the citizens of another country, they're not able to vote for them, Saddam was hardly likely to use his weapons agains us for fear of overwhealming retaliation, and he was never really going to give them to a bunch of religeous loonies, because he would always be in the frame for what ever they did with them, so the question is why did we invade Iraq? Because he has Bios or nukes is not a good enough answer, North Korea has these weapons also and I don't see our troops charging off to Korea, because he committed genocide? Stormin Norm let Iraq keep the helecopters that slaughtered the Kurds. May I suggest that we didn't know what else to do and had to be seen to do something....anything.

I am pleased that the editor of the Newspaper here in the UK that published fake photographs of British troops abusing their prisoners has been dismissed, but his willfull neglegence has increased the risk to countless troops and civilians who are or will be working in Iraq, perhaps he should look for his next job there too

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

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