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Topic Title compressor black death


Date Posted: Tue August 01, 2006 5:26 PM
Posted By: eddiejr (Senior Member)

When I pulled the o-tube from the evap i noticed it had black goop on it unfortunately so i guess the compressor blew its guts a bit afterall (the hood liner had an oil streak so i guess it lost oil and then puked from continued use by the previous owner). Not completely covered but about 1/3 of the filter screen had a buildup of goop. So now I am wondering about the condensor. it is the tube and fin type with the 3/8 tube i believe. I was thinking of flushing it and re-using it. when you look in the ports of the condensor, there is no build-up, just a small amount of dirty soot on the walls. Being 3/8, i would think there is no way that will have plugged right up so i guess the concern would be the small amount of soot. Do you guys think it would be fine to flush it and re-use it? Does the tiny amount of soot present a danger, will flushing remove it easily?

thanks.



Date Posted: Tue August 01, 2006 6:25 PM
Posted By: k5guy (Senior Member)

Unless you like replacing the compressor again and again in the auto air conditioning version of Groundhog Day, I'd replace the condensor, compressor, accumulator, O-Tube, and anything else that won't flush clean. If your hoses have an inline muffler, replace those too.

Also, buy a NEW R4 compressor, not a rebuilt.

-------------------------


Send me e-mail

 08/01/2006 18:26:41|U



Date Posted: Tue August 01, 2006 7:07 PM
Posted By: iceman2555 (Senior Member)



This is a cut a way of a later model PFHE condenser with a similar BD failure. As evident the dark areas of the condenser, this material has adhered to the metal and will not flush out. This condenser has been subjected to several flush chemicals, brake clean, SC Fast Flush, 141 b, alcohol. It was filled with terpene flush and allowed to sit for over 6 hrs and then the flush removed. As one can see the contaminated area did not come clean. Although the condenser will flow 100%, there is a good chance of the heat extraction not being satisfactory.
A suggestion would be to replace the condenser. A few dollars spent here could very well save bucks at a later time.
Remember the 'ole' adage...DO IT ALL!!!....DO IT RIGHT!!!!....DO IT ONCE!!!!
An adage is that if the vehicle is to be retro'd for 134a then a new more efficient condenser is just what the Dr. ordered to make this refrigerant work to its best.

-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson





Date Posted: Tue August 01, 2006 7:07 PM
Posted By: iceman2555 (Senior Member)


Hopefully this made it thru....this time

-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson



 08/01/2006 19:17:29|U



Date Posted: Tue August 01, 2006 7:24 PM
Posted By: TRB (Referred to MAYO for Transplant Testing.)

Needed the .jpg on the end. And for gosh sake 800 X 600 pixels guys.

Some free photo editing tools. http://www.tucows.com/search?search_terms=Photo+Edit&search_scope=win&search_adv=0&search_size=&search_size_multi=b



-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: Arizona Mobile Air


 08/01/2006 19:28:51|U



Date Posted: Tue August 01, 2006 7:50 PM
Posted By: iceman2555 (Senior Member)

Sorry, thought I had down sized it...opps.....

-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson





Date Posted: Tue August 01, 2006 7:58 PM
Posted By: bohica2xo (Senior Member)

izzat betta?

.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.



Date Posted: Tue August 01, 2006 8:07 PM
Posted By: iceman2555 (Senior Member)

thanx for the back up!!!!

-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson





Date Posted: Tue August 01, 2006 9:16 PM
Posted By: TRB (Referred to MAYO for Transplant Testing.)

Fits the screen now. Not really an issue I just like picking on Ice.

-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: Arizona Mobile Air




Date Posted: Wed August 02, 2006 12:53 AM
Posted By: eddiejr (Senior Member)

hmmm, so i guess this crud on the o-tube only gets there from black death then? So there is no way around this then even if it is not really a build-up?

So what about the evap core. Since it is after the o-tube filter, is it generally ok?

thanks.



Date Posted: Wed August 02, 2006 2:39 AM
Posted By: k5guy (Senior Member)

Yes, the evap should be ok if you flush. Most of the crud is stopped by the o-tube.

-------------------------


Send me e-mail



Date Posted: Wed August 02, 2006 10:37 AM
Posted By: eddiejr (Senior Member)

what about the hard aluminum lime from the condensor to the evap with the pressure switch mounted in it? I noticed a bit of that sooty look in there. Is that alright to re-use if it still has that look after flushing? Do I take the switch out for flushing or can I leave it in?



Date Posted: Wed August 02, 2006 12:56 PM
Posted By: iceman2555 (Senior Member)

From what limited intelligence exist under all this gray.....the liquid lines and evap tend to not contaminate as readily as the condenser. Could it be the operational temperatures of the condenser allowing this material to 'bake' in...not sure....but from the units worked with it seems so.
The higher pressure/temp (discharge) side of the condenser tends to absorb this material into the metal. Or the adherence is promoted by the pressure/temp. The lower pressure/temp (liquid) side of the condenser tends to be quite clean. Perhaps, it is the cleaning ability of the liquid refrigerant...not sure. Also, the evap's tend to flush and exhibit not serious retention of this material. Perhaps once more it is temp/press thing or could be that the majority of an evap is flooded with liquid refrigerant. All that is known is that the condensers will maintain this material and the evaps do not. Perhaps, some HVAC engineer (ice-n-topics) could shed some light on this.
If all goes well.....and the photo does down size....and not flood the screen, this is the liquid line of the same condenser posted earlier. As one can see the line is clean, or the material was flushed out.
This second generation of the 'Black Death' problem is more lubricant related and thus the orifice tube/filter or the rec/drier/filter have very little to know effect on the contamination of parts. Debris caused by the failure of lubricant does indeed trap this material, however, the dark oily material will flow thru the entire system.
A side thought, this material can be removed from any system....it is not necessary to change all components to repair the system.....simply purchase...the parts necessary....lets say....4 of everything and go for it. Of course, the subsequent compressor are not purchased...they are simply returned as 'defective'.......ahhh...a bit of steam escaping......
Remember...DO IT ALL!!!DO IT RIGHT!!!DO IT ONCE!!!


-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson





Date Posted: Wed August 02, 2006 1:28 PM
Posted By: eddiejr (Senior Member)

ok, thanks for the info, you guys have been a great help. I agree, do it right. Unfortunately budget constraints are a bit of a limiting factor right now for uncontrollable reasons. I have a friend with the same car only an 89 that I hope has the same condensor (from a known good system and from a car that never sees winter) so i will check that out and if ok then I can replace for free and not even worry about trying to flush. This is the system from which i got the "known good" serp compressor from and was hoping to just swap clutches, so I know for sure it has not suffered from black death and puked in the condensor. So hopefully 85 and 89 GM fbody condensors are the same!

But if I flush that liquid line between the condensor and evap core with the cutout switch, do I have to remove that switch? Will I damage it with cleaners?

thanks for all the help!



Date Posted: Wed August 02, 2006 2:50 PM
Posted By: gbeeley (Senior Member)

Quote

Originally posted by: eddiejr
But if I flush that liquid line between the condensor and evap core with the cutout switch, do I have to remove that switch? Will I damage it with cleaners?


I removed it on my GM system before flushing, just to make absolutely sure. On my system it is mounted on a schrader valve, and was very easy to remove. Just use a new o ring when re-installing, and maybe a new schrader valve core if you have 'em.

If it is between condenser and evap, it is most likely a pressure switch to turn on the condenser fan.

- GB



Date Posted: Thu August 03, 2006 12:01 AM
Posted By: eddiejr (Senior Member)

Quote

Originally posted by: gbeeleyI removed it on my GM system before flushing, just to make absolutely sure. On my system it is mounted on a schrader valve, and was very easy to remove. Just use a new o ring when re-installing, and maybe a new schrader valve core if you have 'em.

- GB


Ok, i will do that then, thanks.





Date Posted: Thu August 03, 2006 12:05 AM
Posted By: eddiejr (Senior Member)

ok, just found another used compressor, same model and the guy said it still has compression and looks good. It had a very small dirty film in the discharge hole. By no means any kind of build up, and it wiped right off. Is this normal for a used compressor to see some or is this indicating the beginings of black death too??

Can you flush it with oil and be ok or is this a bad sign?



Date Posted: Thu August 03, 2006 4:02 PM
Posted By: eddiejr (Senior Member)

So is a little of this film in the discharge hole normal, indicating normal wear. Will I be ok if I clean the compressor out with oil?

thanks.



Date Posted: Thu August 03, 2006 4:25 PM
Posted By: iceman2555 (Senior Member)

"THE GUY' says it has compression....and the test for this was???? oh yes, turn the compressor by hand...hold two fingers over each port to determine if one sucks your finger in....and the other blows it out...yeah...lots of compression. And just a film of dark oil on the discharge port....and it looks good. Personally would not touch a 'used' compressor.....esp with one that has a trace of dark oil on the discharge port...or suction port for that matter. Have removed many GM compressors that were trashed....locked up.....debris in the orifice...but the oil was still clean. Not a fan of discolored lubricant....something caused this break down....and lubricant that does not lubricant causes excessive wear on all moving parts within the compressor.....but...opps forgot....it has compression....!!!
Hopefully "THE GUY' offers a warranty on this compressor! Heck would like to be in this area.....just recovering refrigerant for these used compressor installs would be very profitable.
However, flush the heck out of your system.....clean it thoroughly.....add correct lubricant....evac and recharge....nothing to loose....just a bit of time and some refrigerant....good luck with the repair!!!

-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson





Date Posted: Wed January 24, 2007 10:22 AM
Posted By: ice-n-tropics (Senior Member)

Quote

Originally posted by: iceman2555
From what limited intelligence exist under all this gray.....the liquid lines and evap tend to not contaminate as readily as the condenser. Could it be the operational temperatures of the condenser allowing this material to 'bake' in...not sure....but from the units worked with it seems so.

The higher pressure/temp (discharge) side of the condenser tends to absorb this material into the alunimum metal. Or, the adherence is promoted by the pressure/temp. The lower pressure/temp (liquid) side of the condenser tends to be quite clean. Perhaps, it is the cleaning ability of the liquid refrigerant...not sure. Also, the evap's tend to flush and exhibit not serious retention of this material. Perhaps once more it is temp/press thing or could be that the majority of an evap is flooded with liquid refrigerant. All that is known is that the condensers will maintain this material and the evaps do not.

iceman, your on the right track. Thanks for the visual on the condenser inlet verses outlet.

In former days, had flush success with back flushing pulsating 141b or R-11 (but that is becoming a no-no). 141b is horribly expensive although R-11 is fairly readly avaliable. Problem with R-11, is residual Chlorine which causes acid in R-134a A/C systems. There's still lots of R-11 warehoused around the country.
First prize now for R-134a systems is the Hot Rod version of the Hecat #H1000 which has been souped-up by Karl Matis with his latest pressure and timing cycle. Honeywell's Genesolv SF is the flushing fluid. Honeywell has 2 other flushes which have not been tried.

A overheated compressor from a R-12 A/C system with low charge gets over 300 F at the outlet and degrades the mineral oil. This adheres to the hot outlet chamber cast aluminum surfaces. Also, moisture can combine with Chlorine from the R-12 and form HCl acid which degrades the oil to eventually become almost like tar.
For R-134a systems, a loss of charge causes similar superheated temps which turns the PAG black and coats the compressor discharge chamber. The discharge side is often cruddy black while the suction side is clean.
In the condenser the outlet would be cooler than the abnormally superheated inlet. I concur with you that the cleaner outlet is the effect of cooler temp and some liquid, but I don't fully understand the mechanisims at work here. My theory is that the aluminum porosity and soft, rough surface finish absorbs the black crud and it cannot be flushed or wiped off. Steel or copper tube surfaces are smoother and harder with less porosity and can come fairly clean with the right process. Does that make any sense?

Cordially
ICE





-------------------------
Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod

 01/24/2007 10:25:21|U



Date Posted: Wed January 24, 2007 4:43 PM
Posted By: HECAT (Senior Member)

Quote

Originally posted by: ice-n-tropics

First prize now for R-134a systems is the Hot Rod version of the Hecat #H1000 which has been souped-up by Karl Matis with his latest pressure and timing cycle. Honeywell's Genesolv SF is the flushing fluid. Honeywell has 2 other flushes which have not been tried.

In the condenser the outlet would be cooler than the abnormally superheated inlet. I concur with you that the cleaner outlet is the effect of cooler temp and some liquid, but I don't fully understand the mechanisims at work here. My theory is that the aluminum porosity and soft, rough surface finish absorbs the black crud and it cannot be flushed or wiped off. Steel or copper tube surfaces are smoother and harder with less porosity and can come fairly clean with the right process. Does that make any sense?

Cordially

ICE



Ice,

Thanks for the comment regarding the H1000. I have not heard results from Richard yet but Hecat appreciates the opportunity to see, test, and make adjustments to compensate for the volume associated with this "monster" sized test stand evap.

The other 2 Genesolv products are ST and STZ and they will not work in the H1000 flusher. The are SF with Transdicloroethylene (TCE, nasty stuff) added in two different percentages. For A/C flushing, this makes the product more capable of cleaning out mineral oils. It also makes the product unfriendly to common materials in a 134a system (and the H1000). SF has excellent cleaning ability with PAG and POE oils and this is why we chose to work with SF.

Because this is not the first time we have faced a "larger than automotive" component issue that required testing and timing adjustments, we have now entered into R&D on "smart" timing instead of fixed timing. The goal is to provide targets the machine looks for and can use to extend or shorten cycle times depending on the size of the component being flushed.

Your question, does that make any sense? absolutely!!! Being provided with samples from failures, we are seeing it all. I see, as Iceman called it, second generation "black death", this does not appear to be as catastrophic as the original "black death" but in extreme cases it can still block condenser paths. We have even found and confirmed carbonized PAG in evaporators.

We have found the common "black soot" can be flushed away but the "burned in" black (and sometimes gray in color) will not be removed. This "burned in" carbonized PAG is going to require such caustic chemicals or acids to remove that the aluminum component would not survive.

Although we agree in theory that leaving this carbonized material, as Iceman stated, will have a negative effect on heat extraction. We are on car testing "new" against "flushed" to see if any difference can be detected in the temps and pressures of operating systems. So far, no diff.




-------------------------


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FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 




Date Posted: Thu January 25, 2007 10:17 AM
Posted By: ice-n-tropics (Senior Member)

Karl,
Thanks for the reply. Yes we have some large tube heat exchangers with abnormally low pressure drops. I knew that only SF should be used with the H1000 due to the P-T relationship and good to know the material compatibility issues with TCE. Guess your thinking about that application.
Sounds like your smart timer could be based on circuit pressure drop (or delta P). I really like to see the flush that comes out and only quit when I can see with my own eyes that it is clean and then do it one more time just for a factor of safety, but that's just me.

The metal and teflon from a grenaded compressor can stick to the black goo and stays until the goo is washed out. You might be amazed how many mechanics still think that the A/C system can be flushed out with compressed air. At a truck mechanic A/C service training class in Houston of 60 working mechanics, I asked for a show of hands for those that have fluid flush equipment available. 3 hands raised. The fluid flush equipment market is just beginning to be tapped. That's just one reason why this Forum is so valuable and we should support it.
GM Tech has some excellent points on the advantage of R-134a refrigerant flush (no residual flush) but that equipment is hard to get for the non GM Dealer. Robinair would not even sell it to me for cash unless I have a GM dealer #. Other R&R machines are not so readily available with circulating flush pumps and oversize filters. I finally had to get a BOSCH R&R (at a premium price) with an adequate built in flush system.
Tim, iceman and HECAT might do well to show some visual examples of air flush verses fluid flush to educate the average service guys.
Cordially,
ICE

-------------------------
Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod



Date Posted: Thu January 25, 2007 2:54 PM
Posted By: HECAT (Senior Member)

Ice,

Thanks for the pressure drop suggestion for our "smart" timing R&D. At this time we are trying to use existing temp sensors to make this a software change only before we consider adding additional sensors or making any mechanical changes.

You are correct, I am amazed that technicians still believe they can just air blow a heat exchanger clean and I was even more amazed at the 3 raised hands out of 60.

Waste oil is the contaminant holding sludge (goo) and just blowing over it with air (or 134a gas) is not going to remove any substantial percentage of what is in there. I agree with your suggestion and we have already discussed documenting air blow versus liquid flush and posting those results here.

I have surely said this before. Everyone is screaming that residual flush remaining in the system is the problem with liquid flushing today. The true problem is the technicians lack of understanding that the most important part of a successful liquid flush is the removal of the flushing chemical.

"Yeah I flushed it, I poured in a quart of that stuff in and gave a few pops with my blow gun"

This is why I set out on a development plan to produce a dedicated "refrigerant" flusher. Residual flush was not a concern of the past when flushing was done with evaporative products such as 11, 113, and 141b. And there was a call for the development of flushing with 134a, eliminating residual solvent.

I very much respect your's and GM Tech's position and opinions about flushing with 134a, but both Honeywell and Dupont scientists gave me their detailed reasoning that due to its low boiling point and chemical nature, 134a would not work to perform satisfactory liquid flushing. 141b was primarily an HCFC foam blowing agent so we looked at Dupont and Honeywells development into HFC replacements. With Honeywell's interest in developing such an A/C flushing program we decided to work with them and the HFC-245fa (Genesolv SF) product.

In testing the H1000 at Honeywell, they were able to obtain one of those R&R machines you mentioned, with the 134a flush feature. I prefer not to name the manufacturer, but the waste oil removal was proven to be very poor. Such poor results from such a reputable company, that it was decided not to publish the test results, but please ask your contacts at Honeywell's Buffalo Research Lab for their opinion on this comparison testing. On the other hand the Honeywell test data from the H1000 is published on our web site.

I believe there is no hard test data that shows any 134a R&R machine to be effective at flushing. The flushing features are being added at the whim of the marketing departments and they really don't give a crap if it works or not. I am so confident in the H1000's ability to out perform any 134a R&R machine with a flush feature that I would be willing to wager that when put side by side in a controlled test we can remove at least twice as much waste oil, if not considerably more.

It used to be that a few extra ounces of oil was no problem. Today's systems are getting smaller and smaller and that two ounces can make a huge difference in the performance of a repaired system.

I agree, effective fluid flushing is just being tapped, and it will grow. Today you can throw in a new PFC for a couple of hundred bucks, but the future modular heat exchanger component (radiator, condenser, tans cooler, electronics cooling) could be 10 times that price and all of a sudden an effective DIY flusher ain't so expensive.










-------------------------


HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 




Date Posted: Thu January 25, 2007 3:10 PM
Posted By: TRB (Referred to MAYO for Transplant Testing.)

Here is some data on the Hecat H1000 Flush Machine. With all this chat about the darn thing might as well show a picture of it.

-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: Arizona Mobile Air




Date Posted: Thu January 25, 2007 4:07 PM
Posted By: HECAT (Senior Member)

Thanks Tim.

Can't resist the shameless plug...

Come see the real thing, kick the tires, and ask all your questions at MACS in Phoenix next week.

HECAT will be showing the H1000 and all of it's A/C flushing products, streaming videos on all products, and a live "Pulsating" demo with an exposed (nothing to hide) cutaway FAC-400.

Come tell me you participate on the autoacforum and receive a free gift. (Ha, except Iceman)

Learn more about AMA, Tim has show specials on HECAT products and will be taking pre season orders.

Both side by side in booth 516 & 518.

See you there...



-------------------------


HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 




Date Posted: Fri January 26, 2007 11:40 AM
Posted By: ice-n-tropics (Senior Member)

Quote

Originally posted by: HECAT
Ice,

I have surely said this before. Everyone is screaming that residual flush remaining in the system is the problem with liquid flushing today. The true problem is the technicians lack of understanding that the most important part of a successful liquid flush is the removal of the flushing chemical.

"Yeah I flushed it, I poured in a quart of that stuff in and gave a few pops with my blow gun"

HECAT et. al.,
Maybe these questions are not politically correct or are answered by using the expensive flushing machines, but here goes-
Please provide your input on flushing questions which are asked in training sessions:
1) What process is recommended to remove residual traces of common flushing fluids (hand held low cost pulsating flusher) from tinny cross section multiple passes in modern multi flow condensers and evaporators?
I use Nitrogen blow and overnight air vac, then final deep vac for 45 to 60 minutes, but that isn't going to happen in the service bay. Heck, they'll use moisture laden shop air (not dry paint booth air) for a short while. Some failed compressors smell like stinking flush, not PAG.
2) MACS cautions against the explosive properties of air and R-134a at higher pressure (which might result from flushing a blocked circuit). Is this any concern or do we need a boiler plate statement to use only Nitrogen?
3) For the common low cost flusher: How to legally dispose of the used flush (for DIY and also for shops), since it's not cleaned and recycled (waste of expensive flushing fluid)?
Cordially,
ICE





-------------------------
Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod



Date Posted: Fri January 26, 2007 3:04 PM
Posted By: HECAT (Senior Member)

Ice, Great questions!

Here's my not so politically correct answers.

1) You can stand there with the inexpensive hand held pulsating flusher after the solvent is gone and blow high volume shop air for at least 30 minutes. This does not work with the 1 quart flush gun as the air gun is restrictive and will not provide enough air flow to be effective. This also will not work if a highly evaporative solvent was not chosen, oil based flushes will not evaporate with a generous air blow no matter how long it is done. I prefer to recommend using something to attach the purging air so you do not have to stand there. Yes, we recommend nitrogen or very dry filtered shop air. Why is it not going to be done in a service bay? To those technicians who will not do this, I recommend finding another career as you are not showing to be much of a professional A/C technician. I like your idea of using the air vac, and yes we do recommend at least one our on the vacuum pump. Returned compressors that smell like flush should be returned with a note that employing a professional technician who knows what the hell he is doing can avoid declined warranties.

2) That is a standard safety warning we include with all our A/C flushers. This is a legal disclaimer that is employed because somewhere sometime some idiot blew themselves up and probably sued someone else because they had no clue this could occur. The flushing process is done to a component only after the 134a has been properly recovered. The air purge is employed after a successful flush is completed, indicating a clear path that will not allow for backpressure to build up during the air purge. Yes, we must consult with our attorneys and include as much idiotic safety warning as we can because as stated above, we may be working with technicians who are not only oblivious to the proper procedures required to do a professional A/C repair, they may also not understand basic safety procedures.

3) I cannot speak for the proper disposal of other manufacturers solvents, as for Hecat Safe-Flush, the waste flush and waste oil blend can be disposed of with waste oils. The low odor base solvent will blend well with waste oil. We have recommended this practice for years, and to date, we have no reports of any waste haulers refusal to pick up the load because of solvents in the waste oil. For other more aggressive solvents, if I used them, I would also invest in a solvent recycler because of their cost and to eliminate the disposal issues.

Yes, these questions are also answered with the use of the expensive flushing machine. If I was a shop owner who could not get my tech's to do it right, I would fire them, but thats just me. It would not take long for a shop owner to see that the expense involved with comebacks and denied warranty claims could be greatly reduced thus providing for a quick ROI on the expensive flusher. Flushing, recovering and vacuuming dry a component automatically while the tech works on something else, combined with the less than $1.00 solvent cost per flush because of its solvent recycling ability makes it cheaper to operate over a 24 month period than a flush gun and the single use and disposal of expensive flush.




-------------------------


HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 




Date Posted: Fri January 26, 2007 11:09 PM
Posted By: iceman2555 (Senior Member)

Flush gun....don't need no stinking expensive flush gun.....heck...just give me a can of brake clean........heck that stuff cleans like charmin and evaps so dang fast.....yeah..right.....
Can not count the number of times I have heard this.......and sorry to say have seen it being done in what would normally be considered 'good' A/C repair shops.
When the mfger's and the jobbers get a set and stop accepting all of these 'warranty' (?) (can ya spell 'don't know what the heck I'm doing' but what the heck...if it goes bad they will give me another one anyway') units back for credit...we would see the change in attitudes about flushing and proper service....until then....
Ask a question concerning flushing and how many actually make this apart of a repair in a training session.....and usually can count the response on one hand.....response is normally 'don't have the time or they don't' pay for me to flush.
An old saying is ...." Never have time to do the job correctly....but what the heck....always got time to do it again"
Next response is....of course, the cost.....no one....or very few actually look at the true cost of that second repair...opps...replacement....if the dang thing had been repaired the first time...there would be no second.
Karl, look forward to seeing you at MACS. Perhaps we can get Tim to take us out for a beverage. But then he would want us to put it on the expense account...so...guess we can take him out.
Ya'll have fun out there.




-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson





Date Posted: Fri January 26, 2007 11:44 PM
Posted By: TRB (Referred to MAYO for Transplant Testing.)

My plate is getting full but I would love to put an ice tea on the coporate card. Maybe we can do lunch on set-up day (Thursday).

-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: Arizona Mobile Air




Date Posted: Sat January 27, 2007 7:04 PM
Posted By: iceman2555 (Senior Member)

An iced tea sounds great....now to see if we can get Karl to bring his expense card.

-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson





Date Posted: Mon January 29, 2007 9:40 AM
Posted By: ice-n-tropics (Senior Member)

Gentlemen,
Thanks for the feedback.
Flush gun solvent is way too exx-penn-sivee! Now if there was just a $1,000 cost recycling flusher.
Helped a mechanic flush a 3 evaporator Thermoking reefer the other day. TK uses the regular reefer system inline horizontal large drier for the flush filter. The desiccant brick is the filter and it is replaceable in the drier housing. It sure got crudded up during flushing. A inline auxiliary pump is inserted into the discharge line to pump the liquid system refrigerant at high volume around the system and back through the compressor too. The TK 3 piston compressor has a really good isolated crankcase which retains lube real good. What still baffles me is how TK flushes through the 3 TXVs that were left in place during flushing.
Cordially,
ICE

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Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod



Date Posted: Mon January 29, 2007 10:31 AM
Posted By: HECAT (Senior Member)

OK, I'll buy a round of drinks even if Tim and I are "ice tea" drinkers.

So these are the excuses being given for not properly flushing...

Its too hard... So is the replacement of head gaskets, a water pump, a clutch; quit whining!
I don't have the time...You always have the time to do it again, and again, until its right.
They don't pay me to do it...What are you being paid for? Maybe, to do it right?
The solvents are too expensive...So is gasoline, but you still buy it a drive to work every day.
Solvents have disposal issues...So this is something new for auto repair shops to deal with?
We don't have the right equipment...If you don't have the tools, don't take on the jobs!
If the compressor fails we'll just get another one...Why not, their FREE every time!!!!

I have a few more to add...

Lack of training...
Fear of failure...
Fear of the unknown...
Incompetent...

The problems with flushing are being reported by industry professionals, trade magazine articles, and even in trade organization recommended procedures. This is just creating a phobia and turning more technicians away from flushing rather than educating them. The fact is that it must be done and it must be done correctly. It seems that rather than taking the problem "head on" and offering solutions to the problems at hand, the industry as a whole has decided to "bury their heads in the sand" on this one.

The true A/C professionals know flushing needs to be done, they understand the inherent issues involved, they study the component designs and the type of failure that has occurred, and employ an appropriate and effective method to flush the heat exchangers followed by the removal of the flushing chemical.

In my opinion, too many technicians that are uneducated and clueless to the details are claiming to be A/C technicians and being allowed to service A/C systems, and this is the true problem with flushing today. It appears that the only solution is better education and training combined with stronger A/C certification standards to weed out the incompetents.





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Date Posted: Mon January 29, 2007 6:55 PM
Posted By: TRB (Referred to MAYO for Transplant Testing.)

That is stated very well Karl. Let's not also forget the person that thinks one can of some aerosol flush is all that is required to get a system clean. How many new a/c systems coming off the factory line have a bunch of debris in the system. Heck if it was ok do you think the OEM's would spend time cleaning out the aluminum lines and such after production. Why do companies like Compressor Works or Sanden clean the metal shavings from there body's after mill work? Everyone of us knows the system has to be clean! Does not matter if it is a new system or a system being repaired.

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Date Posted: Tue January 30, 2007 8:56 AM
Posted By: HECAT (Senior Member)

Quote

Originally posted by: ice-n-tropics


Flush gun solvent is way too exx-penn-sivee! Now if there was just a $1,000 cost recycling flusher.

Helped a mechanic flush a 3 evaporator Thermoking reefer the other day. TK uses the regular reefer system inline horizontal large drier for the flush filter. The desiccant brick is the filter and it is replaceable in the drier housing. It sure got crudded up during flushing. A inline auxiliary pump is inserted into the discharge line to pump the liquid system refrigerant at high volume around the system and back through the compressor too. The TK 3 piston compressor has a really good isolated crankcase which retains lube real good. What still baffles me is how TK flushes through the 3 TXVs that were left in place during flushing.



ICE,

$1000.00!!! I agree, if we can make the H1000 recycling flusher any more economical, we will.

Where in the TK system is the filter located?

With an auxiliary pump in the discharge line to flush a complete assembled system, how do you back out larger debris in the condenser that will not flush through? Whatever debris is flushed from the condenser is now heading toward the orifices of the TXVs.

3 evaps, Wow, talk about a "path of least resistance" issue. It does not baffle me how they did it, what baffles me is how effective it appears to be (debris in filter) when in reality the chemical and physical nature of the refrigerant used in the system makes it the wrong refrigerant to flush with. No matter how "high volume" a pump used the restrictive TXV's will restrict and regulate this flow through the evaps as they are designed to do. Did the 3 evaps chill during this process? I would guess they did, indicating that when flushing the liquid refrigerant through the orifice of a TXV into an evap, the refrigerant will evaporate (as it should), thus limiting its ability to be effective on removing waste oils and debris.

Not knowing where the filter is, I would be concerned that flushing through the compressor crankcase which "retains lube real good" could also trap and retain system debris possibly flushed into the compressor.

I would like to say that flushing a complete system is possible, but we have not found an effective and comfortable method. Isolation of the components, removal of restrictions (TXV) that limit flushing flow, and back flushing to back out larger debris that will not pass through, is the most effective way.






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FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 




Date Posted: Tue January 30, 2007 2:47 PM
Posted By: ice-n-tropics (Senior Member)

Quote

Originally posted by: HECAT
Quote

Originally posted by: ice-n-tropics

Where in the TK system is the filter located?
It is in the normal TK location after the condenser

With an auxiliary pump in the discharge line to flush a complete assembled system, how do you back out larger debris in the condenser that will not flush through? Whatever debris is flushed from the condenser is now heading toward the orifices of the TXVs.
Don't know about that question. Maybe there is a permanent filter screen after the compressor that I didn't realize.


3 evaps, Wow, talk about a "path of least resistance" issue. It does not baffle me how they did it, what baffles me is how effective it appears to be (debris in filter) when in reality the chemical and physical nature of the refrigerant used in the system makes it the wrong refrigerant to flush with. No matter how "high volume" a pump used the restrictive TXV's will restrict and regulate this flow through the evaps as they are designed to do. Did the 3 evaps chill during this process? I would guess they did, indicating that when flushing the liquid refrigerant through the orifice of a TXV into an evap, the refrigerant will evaporate (as it should), thus limiting its ability to be effective on removing waste oils and debris.

The trash/contamination can't pass through the desiccant brick/filter. I remember that all 3 evaps had the coil bottom cover/drain pan off. The TXVs were all in place but probably were internally open for flow because the ambient air circulated through the evap fins due to natural convection.

Not knowing where the filter is, I would be concerned that flushing through the compressor crankcase which "retains lube real good" could also trap and retain system debris possibly flushed into the compressor.
The head of the compressor (with valve plate) was replaced by a non restrictive chamber or service plate. The normal very large face area suction screen was left in place and cleaned when flushing was over.

Cordially,
ICE


-------------------------
Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod



Date Posted: Tue January 30, 2007 3:48 PM
Posted By: HECAT (Senior Member)

ICE,

Thanks for the clarity on this very interesting method.

TK must be comfortable with this method and I only comment and question to understand.

Are the 3 evaps in series or parallel?

So far, as I see it, this flushing method...

(1) Provides no way to back out larger debris from the condenser inlet. This concern is moot if it is a big tube and fin unit that debris can flow through (like on your test stands). An automotive type PFC would accumulate debris that would eventually restrict and effect flow through the unit and must be back flushed.

(2) If using the refrigerant the system, TXV, and evaps were designed for, won't the refrigerant want to gas in the evaps and thus flushing effectiveness is compromised?

(3) Removing the compressor head/valve plate and installing a flushing plate with suction screen is a great idea, but now I have a "devils advocate" question. If the compressor was not being replaced, why were they flushing?





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Date Posted: Thu February 01, 2007 11:58 AM
Posted By: ice-n-tropics (Senior Member)

HECAT,
Sorry,
It would be a good flushing learning experience to study in detail the Thermo King and Carrier approved methods. Yesterday at a commercial refrigeration show in Dallas, I asked Honneywell why they were not displaying SD flush, but they didn't know anything. Sorry, I don't have all the answers about approved TK flushing.
This particular Kroger truck repair facility that was flushing, remans compressors in house, and may have had a replacement comp in place, I don't know.
The 3 evaps are in parallel.
The suction screen was a permanent part of the compressor, not just for flushing.
Cordially,
ICE


-------------------------
Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod



Date Posted: Mon February 05, 2007 5:30 PM
Posted By: HECAT (Senior Member)

Quote

Originally posted by: ice-n-tropics
Yesterday at a commercial refrigeration show in Dallas, I asked Honneywell why they were not displaying SD flush, but they didn't know anything.


Honeywell's marketing people are product specific. The Consumer products (Fram, Prestone, Autolite, etc) people seem to know little or nothing about the refrigerant products. The Genetron refrigerant people are not assigned this product and as far as I know there is only one marketing person recently assigned to the Genesolv solvent products. All the people in the know about Genesolv SF were at the MACS show.






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