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(edited) I think my fried my compressor may be OK..time will tell! Pages: 12

sastanley on Tue July 10, 2007 1:43 PM User is offlineView users profile

Year: 1991
Make: Honda
Model: Civic
Engine Size: 1.5
Refrigerant Type: R134a
Ambient Temp: HOT (98)
Pressure Low: 35
Pressure High: 125
Country of Origin: United States

Well..I have been rebuilding this project car for a few years now and recently got the engine installed and running. While the motor was out, I took every A/C part apart (except the compressor), and flushed it with the intention of converting to R134a. I also replaced the drier with a part of ackits.com, and recently put the system back together and sealed it up with fresh new seals and nylog. The short story is that the compressor was spinning for a short period of time with little to no oil in it (I did flush it while it was off the car to remove mineral oil from old R12 system, but did not disassemble it.) Additionally, I didn't have the thermal switch installed correctly (snap ring not seated correctly I suspect) and it shot out of the compressor with a nice bang and some whining of the compressor. Where my brain was during this process is still out for debate.

Now that I have properly installed the thermal switch and its retainer clip, pulled vacuum, added 4.5 oz of PAG-100 oil, and some R134a (about 10 oz.), the compressor starts whining and chattering. I am thinking maybe I've fried the compressor. What I do not want to do is contaminate the system which I have completely disassembled, flushed, and reassembled. The compressor has only been running about 5-10 minutes in the car while I was trying to charge it.

My question(s) are:
Should I cut my losses and install a re-manufactured compressor?
What type of damage did I likely do and is it possible to rebuild this one? Did storing the compressor in the garage for a year without sealing it screw up the internals?
Is it too late? Do I need to flush the whole system again (I hope not!)

Thanks.
-Shawn

Edited: Wed July 11, 2007 at 10:54 PM by sastanley

mk378 on Tue July 10, 2007 2:35 PM User is offline

Did you flush the compressor with solvent? If so that was a big mistake because it never all comes out until you run it. So now you have spread solvent thruout the system and it'll need to be flushed and dried again even if the compressor didn't shed metal into it.

Compressors must not be exposed to solvent, flush them by pouring new oil of the type you are going to use thru it while spinning at moderate speed (such as with an electric drill) on the bench.

Also I'd go with ester oil instead of PAG unless you know it's a good DEC pag that won't react with any remaining chlorine residues from the R12.

sastanley on Tue July 10, 2007 2:40 PM User is offlineView users profile

Roger..sounds like the solvent in the compressor was the problem. the PAG I bought from Tim, after discussion in other threads which assumed I was going to flush, clean and dry everything. I guess I missed that part of "A/C system cleaning 101" and my mistake was on the compressor.- I won't make that mistake again!

So I need to clean & dry everything again...fortunately this is a project car, so tearing it apart and driving it in various states of repair and assembly is not really an issue. I haven't re-installed the shifter console yet, so I can still check out the road thru the hole while I am driving.

So should I give up on this compressor? I don't necessarily mind taking it apart and checking it out, but I also have a transmission to rebuild, and would like to tackle one project at a time. Installing a re-manned compressor may be a better solution for me at this time.

Edited: Tue July 10, 2007 at 2:43 PM by sastanley

JJM on Tue July 10, 2007 2:41 PM User is offline

I wouldn't say you're a dummy... we all make mistakes. I bet it's due to working in the heat... makes us all a little dizzy.

You'd really have to add a full charge before making a determination on noise... the compressor may be clattering and making noise smply because there isn't enough refrigerant to carry the oil.

If you've got a Sanden, 4 oz is the correct amount of oil. The Matsushita needs 5 oz.

Personally, I would just charge it up at this point and hope for the best; why start replacing parts if everything works? But that's just me, and I'm not advocating this by any means. If you've got the original tube and fin condenser, they can usually be flushed successfully if there's damage. However, if you've got a serpentine or paralell flow condenser, in order to save them I'd flush the system again, replace the compressor, drier, and TXV.

That being said, you should at least pull the TXV and check for debris. If it's clean, you can somewhat breathe a sight of relief, but there still could be debris. But by the book you know what you really should do... and that's flush, replace the compressor, dryer (again) and TVX if you want peace of mind.

I'll hope for the best, but in the event of the worst, you can get everything you need from ACKits.com not to mention any help you need here.

Joe


Edited: Tue July 10, 2007 at 2:43 PM by JJM

sastanley on Tue July 10, 2007 2:49 PM User is offlineView users profile

Thanks for the reply..you are absolutely right..I know what I SHOULD do... you get so close to completing another aspect of a project that has taken too long already, and when you make a dumb mistake, you start looking for shortcuts.

I have the Matsushita compressor, and I am pretty sure the info I got here said 4.5 oz....although I am not arguing with anyone....I'll put in 4.75 oz. - chick suggested PAG-100 oil which I bought when I got the last drier from Tim. The assumption was that I was going to not have any solvent and the system was supposed to be fresh, clean & dry, and I would never have to pull it apart again. It sounds like I should have pulled apart the compressor as well and replaced seals, etc..and now I know I should have NOT run solvent thru it.

When I took the system apart the first time, I already had the dash removed, so it was easy..however, I am pretty sure I can get access to the evap & TXV without dropping the dash, although I'll have to review my service manual again. The condenser is original, and if I remember was not real hard to flush. Here's another question. Before, I flushed everything and let it sit for weeks before re-installing. I would plan this break-down and flush to have a little quicker turnaround..what is the best method for removing the mineral spirits from the parts after flushing? Does it evaporate quickly? Does the vacuum pump boil it off? Compressed air through one end?

Edited: Tue July 10, 2007 at 3:06 PM by sastanley

ice-n-tropics on Tue July 10, 2007 3:07 PM User is offline

Shawn,
Your scroll compressor reacts negatively to solvent flushing. Flush compressors only with the A/C system oil which you intend to use.
Storage without sealing could result in rusty (and dirty) steel bearings and carbon steel valves.
1) A rebuilt compressor could multiply your losses.
2) The 10 min. run may have been w/o refrigerant or oil but may have included residual flush solvent. Chattering sounds like the comp is history. The shaft should turn smoothly with very little torque.
3) You can probably check the oil for metal contaminates to decide on re-flushing.
Cordially,
ICE


-------------------------
Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod

Edited: Tue July 10, 2007 at 3:10 PM by ice-n-tropics

bohica2xo on Tue July 10, 2007 3:20 PM User is offline

Shawn:

Don't beat yourself up. The FAQ's have become fairly long, and you just missed the Compressor flushing & testing post.

Removing the residual flush is always an issue. I like to use a fast evaporating flush as a final rinse, but be sure to use something that is non-flammable. Carb or Brake cleaner will work, but the safety issues are a big deal. Products like LPS HDX degreaser are non-flammable. Many electrical contact cleaners are as well.

Getting the bulk of the mineral spirits out? - LOTS of AIR. Do not bother with the rubber tipped blow gun - it only moves a few cfm. Your best bet is to canabalize an old set of hoses for connectors, and clamp air fittings into the hose stubs. Use the quick connect that fits your shop air lines. Your objective here is to build high velocities in the condensor or evaporator - dragging the solvent along to the discharge.
If you have a small compressor, let the tank fill completely - then make the connection & let it drain the tank. Repeat several times, until you can't smell solvent in the item - then do it one more time to be sure.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

boltz on Tue July 10, 2007 3:59 PM User is offline

Do you think it's worth flushing with dry nitrogen after the compressed air?

-JH

sastanley on Tue July 10, 2007 4:14 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: ice-n-tropics
Shawn,

Your scroll compressor reacts negatively to solvent flushing. Flush compressors only with the A/C system oil which you intend to use.

Storage without sealing could result in rusty (and dirty) steel bearings and carbon steel valves.

1) A rebuilt compressor could multiply your losses.

I guess I don't understand #1...is it a $$ issue? or the fact they all only have a 90 day warranty and are used? Could I pull this one apart and rebuild it cheaper and more reliably myself?? The bearings, etc.. don't seem terribly expensive, even directly from Honda, although I'd need a lot of help thru the process...but reman compressors ranges from $150 - $300
Quote
Originally posted by: ice-n-tropics

2) The 10 min. run may have been w/o refrigerant or oil but may have included residual flush solvent. Chattering sounds like the comp is history. The shaft should turn smoothly with very little torque.

Actually, the compressor run without proper lubrication was probably 5-10 seconds. I was attempting to charge it and COMPLETELY forgot the oil...again, I don't know where my brain was. Since I had the temp switch in the compressor improperly installed, it blew out the snap ring and rubber plug and then the compressor started squealing and I shut it off immediately. That may have been a blessing in disguise to alert me to other issues..I have since inspected the thermo switch and how it fits in the compressor more carefully and gotten the snap ring properly seated...just an initial oversight on my part I guess. The chatter sounds more like a relay clicking in and out frequently (almost the same sound as a valve in the cylinder head needing adjustment, but I switched off the A/C via the dash switch as soon as I heard the sound..I guess I am trying to minimize the damage..the squeaking right now as intermittent, but seems to be slowly getting worse as I add freon..it is slow when you add it 12oz. at a time and are trying to keep the can warm with your hands.

Quote
Originally posted by: ice-n-tropics

3) You can probably check the oil for metal contaminates to decide on re-flushing.

Do I pull the compressor and dump what oil that is in it out? Additionally, since I may have residual flush contents, will they break down the PAG oil or refrigerant? The shaft on the compressor itself turns without any real friction..when I put in the oil, it felt the same as when I had it on the bench and what I now realize was improperly flushing it...I put in a few ounces of oil, and then rotated the compressor to move it out so I could add in some more. I also have the belt & idler pully set to OEM specs, (which surprisingly makes the belt looser than I would have guessed) so as not to overload the shaft/bearings/seals, although they are all original.

Thanks for all the help so far. hopefully I got the 'quotes' right so I can address each question properly. - now on to bohica's post...I haven't figured out how to quote two posts at once easily yet.
-Shawn


Edited: Tue July 10, 2007 at 4:18 PM by sastanley

mk378 on Tue July 10, 2007 4:26 PM User is offline

If the compressor still turns freely and you have oil in it now, I'd go with JJM's advice and put a full charge (about 22 oz of R134a) and test it a little more before doing anything major.

sastanley on Tue July 10, 2007 4:26 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
Shawn:



Don't beat yourself up. The FAQ's have become fairly long, and you just missed the Compressor flushing & testing post.



Removing the residual flush is always an issue. I like to use a fast evaporating flush as a final rinse, but be sure to use something that is non-flammable. Carb or Brake cleaner will work, but the safety issues are a big deal. Products like LPS HDX degreaser are non-flammable. Many electrical contact cleaners are as well.



Getting the bulk of the mineral spirits out? - LOTS of AIR. Do not bother with the rubber tipped blow gun - it only moves a few cfm. Your best bet is to canabalize an old set of hoses for connectors, and clamp air fittings into the hose stubs. Use the quick connect that fits your shop air lines. Your objective here is to build high velocities in the condensor or evaporator - dragging the solvent along to the discharge.

If you have a small compressor, let the tank fill completely - then make the connection & let it drain the tank. Repeat several times, until you can't smell solvent in the item - then do it one more time to be sure.



B.

I have access to some of the fast drying electrical cleaners at local hardware stores...I'll see if I can find a non-flammable one.

I was just thinking about the rubber tipped gun and how to seal it to one end of the evap and/or condenser and let it dry each piece out overnight...my air compressor is approx 30 gals, and will push a max 150 PSI. I need to see if my fittings will handle that much..most of them are max 90 PSI.

Looking at your FAQ post above, is there any real way to test this compressor since it is a scroll type? This is an old project car, but it is hot here, I want to do this right, but also don't mind working on it more later if the compressor lasts for 6 months and then takes a dump due to my errors this time around. Do I flush the compressor again, flush the TXV, evap & condenser, dry it out, put it all together and see what happens?

Guess I need to order some more oil from Tim!

sastanley on Tue July 10, 2007 4:35 PM User is offlineView users profile

Thanks mk378 - I'll check the compressor this evening. It was late and hot last night, which as mentioned above by someone else, has probably has caused half my issues. Is there anywhere I can pull a sample of the oil out (dump out of drier maybe) to see if there is any metal in it?

If I remember the r-12 sticker on the firewall, this vehicle's charge is 34 oz. To help me with my math, I assume that is 34 oz. of refrigerant, plus 5 oz. of oil. With r134a conversion, I should go up to 80% of 34 oz, correct?

I was just thinking, maybe the squealing is the belt actually being too loose? The idler pulley's spec is something ridiculously light like 7 ft. lbs...i'll have to measure the deflection on the belt too...maybe as I am adding freon the belt is slipping?

I never had a problem turning the compressor by hand when adding the oil..i'll confirm whether I can still do that this evening.

Thanks again to everyone so far for the advice and knowledge...this is a project car of my own, but I'd like to not be sweating my butt off driving around town either.

Edited: Tue July 10, 2007 at 4:37 PM by sastanley

bohica2xo on Tue July 10, 2007 4:43 PM User is offline

Shawn:

There is no simple bench test for a scroll - they have no suction check valve. You can however check the flush oil discharge for debris.

All of the standard shop air fittings will take 150 psi. Use a ball valve if you are unsure. Just run the compressor to full, then dump the tank through the condensor. Much more effective than running the compressor for hours on end.

If your regulated foe shop tools, that is fine - 90 psi will do the job if there is enough VOLUME. Most blow guns max out @ 2cfm & 30 psi.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

boltz on Tue July 10, 2007 4:51 PM User is offline

Hi, sorry to pester you about this, but do you think flushing with dry nitrogen after the
compressed air is worth doing? It says to do this in my Volkwagen shop manual.

-Jim Hart

mk378 on Tue July 10, 2007 4:52 PM User is offline

I have a '91 Civic and I'm pretty sure I put 22 oz in it as a guess, and it cools fine.

The nut on the idler just locks the adjustment in after you pull it up with the jack screw. I'd think if you were to tighten that jack screw to 7 ft lb the belt would be over tight. I'd go by belt deflection. There is a large (but by no means indestructible) bearing in the hub of the pulley that takes the strain from the belt. The mechanism of the compressor itself is not subject to the belt tension.

sastanley on Tue July 10, 2007 11:30 PM User is offlineView users profile

Hi...I pulled out the trusty Helms' service manual tonight, although I didn't have a lot of time to fiddle with the car this evening..it is already 11:15 here on the East Coast.
Thanks for that info mk378 - The belt was very loose...probably 3/4" of belt deflection or more...it felt too loose. I loosened the idler pulley locknut and tightened down on the adjustment bolt and checked the deflection again...probably less than 1/2" now, the manual says 0.3-0.4", and it feels much better, so in the dark with a headlamp that is the best I can do. It is too late to fire her up tonight, so I'll wait 'til the morning, maybe before I head into work.

Whoever said 5 oz. of oil is right...sometimes Honda is not real clear, but I deciphered 5 oz. from their cryptic writing in the Helms manual. The sticker on the firewall says min 30oz, max 34oz of R-12, so I'll keep the 22oz number in mind since 80% of 30oz is 24oz anyway.

I can could turn the compressor pretty easily by hand (there isn't much clearance to get your hand down there, but I bet I could even rotate it with a finger), and was able to hear what I assume are the reeds? clicking quietly as they go by..probably three per revolution....then a change in pressure I guess as the compressor pushes stuff thru the discharge line.

I'll give you more info tomorrow. Thanks again to everyone. the plan right now is to take JJM's advice since I really have nothing to lose. I obviously made some errors, but I am learning for next time.

boltz - i can't really help you there, I don't know anything about nitrogen nor do I have ready access to it...My stap-father is a VW mechanic however, so I'll ask him when I see him.

bohica- As for the flush & dry..I think I can get 4 cfm at 90 PSI with this compressor, but that is without referring to the manual..I remember I couldn't quite buy as strong an impact gun as I really wanted for this compressor, but I can't complain because it was a gift and is way better than anything I've ever had before (= none!).

If you think we're having fun now, wait 'til I have to pull the dash to replace the evaporator in my '93 Grand Cherokee! Right now I just feed it a few oz. of r134a once or twice a summer.

Thanks again!
Shawn

Edited: Tue July 10, 2007 at 11:33 PM by sastanley

ice-n-tropics on Wed July 11, 2007 12:08 PM User is offline

Shawn,
Since you told us later that it's a Matsushita, then it is probably a vane rotary instead of the normal Civic scroll. The chattering is probably from the 4 vanes which can clatter 4 or less times times per rev. If one or more of the vanes gets stuck and will not fully retract and extend, then the vane/s hammer as it recontacts the oval housing. As pressure builds after start up the rising pressure acts against the inside edge of the vane and tends push it outward to keep it in constant wall contact, so it becomes quiet at higher pressure and higher centrifugal force (higher rpm). If the lube is not the exact critical type factory spec, then the friction of the front and rear edge of the vane/s can drag abnormally against the housing end plates and bind & permanently scar the surfaces. Therefore:
1) Put in the OEM spec lube and refrigerant
2) If the oil is clean when you remove the nare-do-well lube that is installed, ignore the start up clattering temporally and see if you can free up the vanes at higher rpm/centrifugal forces. Maybe you can "break-in the scared vane edges and housing surfaces by running an hour at medium rpm.
Cordially,
ICE

-------------------------
Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod

sastanley on Wed July 11, 2007 2:04 PM User is offlineView users profile

Hi ICE,

Thanks for the detailed explanation of what's going on in the compressor. I have a great visual without being able to see inside the thing.

One more piece of data: the 10 minutes of testing and running of this compressor in its current state and the associated noises have all been at idle speed..once I got some refrigerant and oil in there and hoping things a little quieter, my plan was to get the revs up just a little to help get more accurate readings and feedback. I'll likely take your advice on #2 and see what happens...I am going to get an oil sample and see what I discover.

My schedule has suddenly gotten cluttered this week, so I am not finding as much time to get my hands dirty as I'd wanted to.

I do not have certifications, so I do not have access to R-12, which was one of the reasons I chose to retrofit to R-134a...this way I also have all my vehicles with the same refrigerant, same fittings, etc.. as I was successful in converting my 90 Corolla last summer to R-134a with help from this site. Here is a link to the thread from over a year ago, which prompted me to go ahead with the R-134a conversion of this Civic while I had it apart. PAG-100 oil was recommended, since I was planning to take each component apart and flush (except for the mineral spirits in the compressor )

other Shawn ramblings on this forum about his car(s)

Thanks again for all the advice..I'll follow up as soon as I can get some more time to mess with it.

-Shawn

Edited: Wed July 11, 2007 at 2:07 PM by sastanley

ice-n-tropics on Wed July 11, 2007 2:43 PM User is offline

Shawn,
Cert is avaliable on line for $18 at MACS
ICE

-------------------------
Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod

sastanley on Wed July 11, 2007 3:19 PM User is offlineView users profile

really? guess I need to go take the test!

sastanley on Wed July 11, 2007 8:09 PM User is offlineView users profile

OK..well...here goes. I took joe's advice and decided to load it up and see what happened..once I adjusted the belt there was no more squealing at all, so I must have had that too loose. When I whack the A/C button, the compressor kicks in about 2 seconds later, and seems to make a nice relatively quiet engagement...much more quiet than the clunky Cherokee I have.

I have no way to weigh the refrigerant, but I put in just about 22 oz. as suggested above (almost two 12 oz. cans, but not quite) and the numbers were at idle:

low - 32 high - 175 vent - 56.8F ambient - 84.4F

So, I added a few ounces at a time (total about 26 or 27oz, the third can is almost full) and got down to at a slightly elevated idle, which was about 1,000 RPM:

low - 26 high - 185 vent - 48.4F ambient - 83.0 F

at about 1,500 RPM or so:

low - 19 high - 220 vent - 48.9F ambient - 84.0 F

You guys are the experts, but I don't think I want to go any further than that right now. It seems pretty good to me for a converted system. - I noticed when I plugged in the third can that my yellow hose (into the can tap) was just starting to hiss a little, and upon further inspection, I realized the o-ring/sealer is pretty chewed up...I probably had overtightened it at some point.. These also look a little more involved than a simple o-ring...can you replace the seals or do I need to buy a whole new $20 hose ??

Edited: Wed July 11, 2007 at 8:15 PM by sastanley

sastanley on Thu July 12, 2007 9:40 AM User is offlineView users profile

Of course after sweating to death the last three evenings over the car, the weather here has broken and it is beautiful and 85 today (Thursday) with no humidity!

Drove the car to work for the first time today...didn't need the A/C!!

sastanley on Mon August 20, 2007 9:49 PM User is offlineView users profile

Hi there...thought I should provide an update since everyone on this site has been so helpful.

The next day the A/C didn't work at all. I used my ackits.com UV kit and found dye all over the place on one side of the condenser, pulled the radiator support (covering and supporting the condenser) and pinpointed it to a mangled seal in the left side fitting of the condenser. I must have messed it up during assembly. After replacing the seal, adding 3 oz of PAG-100 oil (the amount of oil was a guess after everything leaked out (twice) on the floor and ate thru the garage floor sealant) - Pulled vacuum, let it sit overnight, held vacuum (I do not have a micron gauge, but the gauge set stayed pinned (apparently) at 30in vacuum, and pulled vacuum again for 30 more minutes before charging.

I now have working A/C and it seems to be holding.

My recent numbers were with 27 oz. of R-134a and the car running in the garage:
RPM = 1400
low = 21
high = 210
ambient = 86.0
vent = 46.6

Just for comparison I checked it again a couple days later and had the readings:

RPM = 1100
low = 21
high = 165
ambient = 76.1
vent = 42.6

I can't complain..Hopefully the compressor will hold up a while..i am seeing zero UV dye emissions from the shaft at present.

Edited: Mon August 20, 2007 at 9:55 PM by sastanley

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