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A recent statement by an auto instructor

The Power of Dreams on Fri September 07, 2007 8:48 AM User is offline

Recently, while attending a class, I was present to hear an instructor state the following (paraphrase from what I can specifically recall):

"A guy was in Antarctica and had a sample of ozone [in some container]. He set it outside and came back [to test the sample] and the ozone was gone. You see, ozone [simply cannot exist] at those temperatures."

He essentially stated that the only reason auto manufacturers switched to R-134a, as a result of the Montreal Protocol Treaty, was because DuPont's patent expired on R-12. Furthermore, he stated that all the "hub-bub" (my words) regarding the ozone depletion are practically fear-mongering on behalf of the scientists and the industry experts, since apparently ozone never did, nor can it, exist in the extremely cold temperatures present in the Arctic and Antarctic.

So, that big whole which is actually over the Antarctic, according to NASA satellites --- he says it's always been there.

Your thoughts? Am I really to believe what this instructor states? Numerous times already, I've caught things he stated which were false. One, of course, is that "Indy race cars run on methanol." Well, some might in other leagues, but the engines in Honda's Indy Racing League (all Honda engines, BTW) run on pure ethanol, not methanol.

Edited: Fri September 07, 2007 at 8:51 AM by The Power of Dreams

iceman2555 on Fri September 07, 2007 9:48 AM User is offlineView users profile

If one were to study.....well....suppose one could research various informational sources concerning this idea....BUT does it really matter....the law has been changed....new systems developed.....and 12 'ain't com'in back.....unless perhaps....well...perhaps....when Elivs returns...he brings it along.


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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

mk378 on Fri September 07, 2007 10:41 AM User is offline

The ozone in question is (or was) not at the ground, it is high in the upper limits of the atmosphere, where it is always cold no matter what latitude. Ozone at or near ground level is not desirable. It is a major factor in "smog." Like most chemicals, ozone is more stable at low temperatures. I think you can freeze ozone into a solid rock but you don't want to be around when it warms up.

There was considerable argument that an "ozone hole" would've occurred naturally, due to lack of sunlight there in the winter months (our summer months).

The more likely conspiracy angle is someone had a patent on the only good way to make R134a and forced the change. There was no industrial production of R134a before the ban on R12 because R12 was less expensive to make and could be used instead.

NickD on Fri September 07, 2007 11:21 AM User is offline

History Channel loves to reshow, Who Shot JFK?, that still leaves a lot of doubt, their bit on a 9/11 conspiracy was killed as it was shown, nothing was said about CFC's cutting a hole in the ozone layer. Ozone is the combining of O2 molecules to from O3, so you gotta have O2 up there plus UV radiation from the sun to form O3. O3 due to it's physical size absorbs UV radiation that protects us from such things as skin cancer. The chlorine atom in R-12 is suppose to strip an oxygen atom from the O3 to make it O2 again. According to the theory, the O2 will not combine with another O2 atom with more UV radiation from the sun that the CFC's undone, and we all will die.

The theory assumes that the ozone layer is isolated, like in a test tube in a lab, on the contrary, sun heats the earth, air rises, and there is constant change in the ozone layer. I could buy air sample tests where excessive amounts of CFC's were found in the atmosphere, no such tests were made. But even at that, less than 2% of the CFC's manufactured were used in MVAC applications, so by banning the other 98%, is R-12 use in automotive with say a 20 phase out period really going to hurt anything? I think not. The leading hole produced in the ozone layer is methane gas that is constantly released from the earth and formed in extensive amounts in sewage processing systems. Not a word was said about methane.

Your instructor is all wet in saying the R-12 patent expired that started all this, the R-12 patent did expire, but like about 50 years ago, but DuPont did get a patent on R-134a that may be grounds for a conspiracy theory, but you will be up against many nations that agreed to the Montreal Treaty.

In my book, R-12 is the ideal refrigerant for the environment. The theory does state UV radiation will break up the CFC molecule, but says this is a bad thing. I say it's a good thing because the CFC will be broken down to it's component parts and is biodegradable. Can the same thing be said about HFC's? HFC's have proven global warming and use very unfriendly chemicals in it's production. The ban on CFC's was laughed at for years, until Gore got into power, now Gore that pushed HFC's is claiming we are getting global warming because of CO2! Why doesn't this bastard state that his HFC's are causing global warming?

One common denominator in all this is contradiction from our leaders, that is one thing you can certainly bet on.

JJM on Fri September 07, 2007 2:52 PM User is offline

It DOES matter... unless of course you don't care about doing without air conditioning all together. We were compliant with the ban on HCFC and CFC refrigerants like R-12. We are being compliant about the coming ban on HFC refrigerants R-134a. We will no doubt be compliant about "natural refrigerants" like R-744, since the brainwashing campaign that CO2 is responsible for "global warming" is well under way and is highly successful. So please tell us what refrigerants will be left?

The Jews in Nazi Germany too were very compliant. How'd that work out?

Even after 2000 years, the wisdom of Edmund Burke still rings true that "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". And it seems good men will continue to do nothing until we're relegated into Third Worldism without air conditioning and refrigeration. Exaggeration? Hardly -- we're already being guilted for using toilet paper by major media and entertainment figures. We're being told we should bring our own "sacks" to supermarkets like we're going to a Somali market. No thanks. Screw up somebody else's country, not mine.

This instructor is right about the ozone hole being there all along. Just because it was "discovered" in 1985 doesn't mean it wasn't there for thousands or millions of years before. I just don't buy the whole patent conspiracy theory because the patent for Freon was long been expired before all this ozone hole BS -- though I'm certainly well aware of the unholy alliance between big government and big business.

No, this ozone hole being caused by CFC's was nothing more than propaganda ginned up by America hating freaks -- just like the current "global warming" crisis is.

Joe

mascas on Fri September 07, 2007 5:24 PM User is offline

Listen it is simple. Who ever has the most money.....wins. Our government can control just about anything and the things they cannot control...will evaporate and never return. Has anyone seen the man who designed the Fuel Carb that got 50 plus miles to the gallon..nope....He designed this way before his time and it completely shook the government. The man has not been seen since..was he done away with? dunno was he paid off.....dunno..was he silenced...yep.
Is chlorine the culprit for destroying our oh so important molecules in the ozone....donno...the government funded scientific studies say so...good bye r-12...
I am by no means an anarchist and I am a proud American man....but sometimes I wonder just how free we are.

TRB on Fri September 07, 2007 5:28 PM User is offlineView users profile

http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/fish3.htm

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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

iceman2555 on Fri September 07, 2007 5:41 PM User is offlineView users profile

All this 'conspiracy' stuff......heck...Im happy when me GMC gets 18MPG......and I know where I was when Kennedy was shot....DO YOU?????

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

iceman2555 on Fri September 07, 2007 5:57 PM User is offlineView users profile

It should be remembered...that all this Ozone Depletion stuff was a theory presented by two scientist....was never proven.....at least as far as I know.....perhaps..some one can enlighten that subject.....
The simple fact is....R12 is gone.....never gonna come back......unless...maybe Elvis will bring some when the 'Aliens (space type)' return the "KING" to Vegas.
134a is on the 'chopping' block....what will replace it....that is unknown....CO2...(?) but most 'talking heads' in the industry say NO. 152a....but there is the flame thing.....attended a conference awhile back....seems all the OE's want to keep things just as they are.....134a works.....although there are some drawbacks..but what the heck...it works....we have the parts....no massive changes to the system....Mr. EPA...leave it alone.
Agreed....JJM...it is up to us.....voice an opinion....after all...we did nothing about 12 and look what happened.....although, it is doubtful that this seemingly insufficient cause....the change of refrigerant is going to amount to a hill of beans to your congressman....who have other more important things on their minds.....like....WHERE IN THE HECK CAN A MAN TAKE A DECENT PISS ????
Damn, I travel.....all over this great country....and now...the bathroom police are gonna be on the lookout for my shoe touching someone else.....oh my gosh.....hopefully I do not bump into someone coming/going out of the entrance.....and guess what...has anyone noticed...the gap between the doors/walls of the stalls are getting wider....and wider......mmmmmm???? Makes one wonder......is someone watching out there......BBB.....Big Bathroom Brother........combine this with toilet paper that must come from a jewelry supply house....that stuff is so hard....it must surely will cut a diamond.......Damn Pampers are looking better all the time......Oh well.....Ya'll have lots of fun out there this weekend....

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

NickD on Fri September 07, 2007 11:47 PM User is offline

" Now official: VDA picks CO2 air conditioning
By R744.com
Sep 6, 2007, 07:39



Belgium — September 6, 2007 — As announced by R744.com on 27 July, the German Association of the Automotive Industry (VDA) has confirmed the joint decision of the German car industry to choose the natural refrigerant CO2 (R-744) for next-generation air conditioning. With this "breakthrough in climate technology", the Germans are showing the way to other carmakers worldwide.

"With this joint step the German car manufacturers are taking the global lead in climate friendly refrigerants and putting into action their strategy for sustainable mobility," VDA President Matthias Wissmann states in the official press release.

Given that other proposed chemical alternatives are no longer considered by the German car industry, manufacturers and suppliers will now intensify talks to keep improving CO2 Mobile Air Conditioning systems."

More can be read at http://www.gohtsn.com/article_731.shtml.

Ha, Gore is not popular with the BBC, Gore dropped, now if America will follow suit.

100 mpg carburetor? In the 50's, it was only a 50 mpg carburetor, but the myth must be updated from time to time, I guess.

This was only a patent, or supposed patent on just the carburetor, not an entirely new engine concept. And all the carburetor can do is to mix fuel with air. Back then as today, the ideal power ratio was 12:1 and best fuel economy was at 14.7:1, the well known stoichiometric ratio, run it any richer and the engine would flood, misfire, kick out black smoke, and blog down. Run it leaner, engine would also misfire, run hot, and have very little power. So exactly what did they do just to improve the carburetor? One thing was to get rid of it with fuel injection, and fuel injection was also popular back then as well for diesel and aircraft engines. Would that give 50 mpg? Sure, if the vehicle was made small enough, just like today. Still using the same old ICE that is running about 15-18% efficient. And the rest of the fuel energy is accounted for, like heating up the catalytic converter, blowing it out the exhaust pipe, and overheating the engine calling for drastic measures to keep the operating temperature safe.

And why would the oil companies want to do this back in the 50's when they couldn't even give gasoline away? And why aren't we getting 50+mgp in this huge SUV's with all of that electronic crap? Prius can't even get that much.

mascas on Sat September 08, 2007 11:33 AM User is offline

Yes yes the 50 MILE CARB (as I stated) is a fable that has been blown out of the water by scientific reasons. It was actually a 200 mpg carb at the beginning and was never patent and was built by a machinist actually only got around 18 mpg.(as one of the stories go)
But it came along way from Air siphoned or kerosine soaked rag dripping down.
There has never been a completed conclusion on how to make our exhaust run cold,I mean after all it would take that to run 200 mpg,wouldn't it?All heat is is wasted energy right.So I guess it will never be done on gasoline at all.
Charles Pogue (spelling) is actually in Canada withering away in a nursing home(legend has) but it sure sounded better having him disappear,even though they actually don't know if its the true machinist anyway.
None the less with todays gasoline it will never be used for the simple reason that todays gasoline is not as volatile as the gasoline of the 30's and the 500 mile Carb relies on heated fuel to vaporize....
Well one thing is for sure gents......there are some things we as blue collard workers will never know or understand.

TRB on Sat September 08, 2007 1:07 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: iceman2555
and I know where I was when Kennedy was shot....DO YOU?????

Making the second set of tooling?

-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

graeme on Sun September 09, 2007 6:29 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: The Power of Dreams
Recently, while attending a class, I was present to hear an instructor state the following (paraphrase from what I can specifically recall):
So, that big whole which is actually over the Antarctic, according to NASA satellites --- he says it's always been there.


So he had satellite pictures from 50 years ago to show something different?.........believe what you want to.......however, living here in Australia, the monitored increases in UV reaching the ground have been dangerously increasing and far exceed those of the northern hemisphere.

NickD on Sun September 09, 2007 7:33 AM User is offline

Quote
So he had satellite pictures from 50 years ago to show something different?.........believe what you want to.......however, living here in Australia, the monitored increases in UV reaching the ground have been dangerously increasing and far exceed those of the northern hemisphere.

I have noticed over the last several years, increased difficulty in having to drive east with that huge sun rising on the horizon, okay, the earth is turning into it. It's blinding, opthamologist tells me that my eyes are becoming much more light sensitive with age, wear much darker sun glasses with UV protection. Some claim it's our desire for meat with huge herds of cattle generating methane gas destroying the ozone layer, while others claim claim fissures on the ocean floor are releasing huge amounts of methane that can even sink a large ship. Still others are reporting increased sun spot activity as the sun is going through cycles, while others claim the volcanoes are taking a brief rest clearing the atmosphere, but not to worry, some huge ones are way overdue and we will be entering another ice age.

Of all these, I like blaming a can of R-12 the best and just wonder what insignificant, but necessary part of our life they are going to blame next? That is, besides a few parts per million of CO2. But whatever, the cure will be increased taxation and fines.

mascas on Sun September 09, 2007 9:33 AM User is offline

Did anyone see the 60 minutes on Global warming? It was pretty interesting,however the scientists never once said anything about r 12...They blamed it on factories and exaust fumes etc.......The showed these hermit scientists in antartica and alaska showing the Glaciers falling off....Pretty neat stuff.

NickD on Sun September 09, 2007 11:52 AM User is offline

And Planet Earth showed a small school or whales trapped up in the arctic constantly pounding on the ice for a breathing hole, nearest open water was over twenty miles away and a polar bear was constantly looking at the hole waiting for a whale to come up so he would get a meal. Scientist said no way of saving these whales, shouldn't have gotten trapped in the first place, but had to wait until spring before that long ice layer would melt.

Of course you can film icebergs breaking up, you can do that every spring, then you can film chimney and auto exhaust, and you can say this exhaust is melting the icebergs. Can also film a guy popping the tab off a beer can and claim that is the cause of the ice bergs melting, but that would never happen if it were true, especially since the sponsors are beer companies. Still damned cold in the arctic, we had one of the worse winters in over 25 years with constant arctic blasts. Winds shifted again today from the north, instead of 92*F weather, dropped to 45*F. So tell me about global warming.

graeme on Sun September 09, 2007 10:03 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: mascas
Did anyone see the 60 minutes on Global warming? It was pretty interesting,however the scientists never once said anything about r 12...They blamed it on factories and exaust fumes etc.......The showed these hermit scientists in antartica and alaska showing the Glaciers falling off....Pretty neat stuff.

The reason they probably said nothing about r12 is because the program was perhaps on global warming and not on the ozone hole.
For all the skeptics, perhaps do some internet searches on what is happening in Greenland regarding their changing landscape.

NickD on Mon September 10, 2007 8:54 AM User is offline

This is a significant change:

"The methane level rose from about 700 ppb in preindustrial times to about 1,750 ppb in 2000."

Our DNR pushed liquid manure spreading that drove me out of my beautiful country home, high concentrations of methane led to many health problems in my family. Their game was to put it down all at once so it wouldn't flow in the streams, one solution led to other problems. Man's desire to eat meat is a leading cause of methane production along with the latest sewage treatment problems. Methane not only contributes to global warming, but also major destruction of the ozone layer. So why isn't anything said about methane?

Methane is also a low carbon fuel and there is a known natural supply of this stuff that can supply the earth with all it's energy needs for the next 3,000 years, so besides being a problem, can also be a huge blessing. But no, let's not talk about methane, let's continue to war over oil and blame global warming on a tad of CO2 and a can of R-12 for poking holes in the ozone layer.

On the other hand, if all the methane is conserved, the ozone layer would get so thick it will block the sun, and without it's global warming potential, the earth will be one large ice cube. Thing is, nobody really knows for sure, and those that claim to know are the most dangerous, the study of the earth's climate changes is in it's infancy. But whatever is done is sure to make a few wealthy with this R-134a thing with the rest of us paying the price.

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