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Black Death or Not? GM System

terryk on Mon March 31, 2008 8:31 PM User is offline

Year: 86
Make: Pontiac
Model: Fiero
Engine Size: 2.8L
Refrigerant Type: R134
Country of Origin: United States

I finally got around to pulling the system apart and seeing what happened. The compressor spins nice and free! Ok, it's a 21 year old HR6. I can't complain. I converted it several years ago when a hose finally gave out. In hindsight I should have just put a new compressor in since this clean up won't be fun....

I drained the oil from the compressor and it looked fine. No black, no metal, squat.

I pulled the orifice and it was covered in gray slimy oil on the high side. On the low side screen there is some color but nothing obvious.

I have the evaporator and condenser out. The condenser is a single tube (not parallel) and I was thinking of flushing it but since they aren't all that expensive I might just replace it.

The inlet to the evaporator showed a light film of gray but no metal when I wiped it with a Q-tip. This I will flush.

I will add a filter for extra safety and a new hose assembly since I can't flush the muffler.

I read various posts on the forum and I am not sure this is black death. Does it qualify? I still need to drain the accumulator to see what is in there. Maybe I'll get lucky (meaning nothing bad got into the accumulator?)

TK

TRB on Mon March 31, 2008 9:09 PM User is offlineView users profile

Gray oil is not black death. More wear material from years of use.

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terryk on Mon March 31, 2008 9:27 PM User is offline

Dang it! I thought I finally owned me a title! I could be on a poster of somethin'.

Well, this should be easier to clean up.

TK

iceman2555 on Mon March 31, 2008 9:30 PM User is offlineView users profile

The "Black Death" of todays vehicle is much different from that experienced by the earlier Ford FX15. The second generation of this very serious failure is normally the result of certain additives and residual flush chemicals.
Late model V series....very strong 'chemical' odor!!!!

Another, late model H series...same condition!!![


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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson



Edited: Mon March 31, 2008 at 9:31 PM by iceman2555

terryk on Mon March 31, 2008 9:33 PM User is offline

So what do I take away from that?

TRB on Mon March 31, 2008 9:34 PM User is offlineView users profile

Second image looks like a solvent cut the oil.

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Contact: ACKits.com

terryk on Mon March 31, 2008 10:52 PM User is offline

The paste/goo on the orifice looks more like the top pic but the oil that came out of the compressor was clean.

iceman2555 on Tue April 01, 2008 5:49 PM User is offlineView users profile

Take what you will from the photos...they were for enlightenment only.
Some may disagree, however, it is suggested to flush the system when changing a compressor or when the amount or quality of lubricant is in question. The use of acceptable flush chemicals, those that clean and are easily removed from the system is highly suggested. If staying with the 'older' compressor....suggest to drain the lubricant and flush the compressor with a good quality lubricant...DO NOT FLUSH WITH OTHER CHEMICALS! Fill and drain the compressor several times and then refill to specifications with the correct lubricant and reinstall. Take the variable of an unknown lubricant from the repair.
Of course the remainder of the system should also be flushed and cleaned properly.
The first compressor photo was taken from a vehicle that used a popular flush product..one sold in many retail/commercial locations. However, when checking the MSDS for this particular chemical...it was discovered that the solvent used was mineral spirits.....and that chemical is almost impossible to remove from a system.....requires an entirely different flush chemical and procedure to accomplish this.
Thankfully the product has been removed from the market place by the manufacturer.....although they always stated that it was a 'fast evaporative' flush.....glad to see that one gone.....
There is one good method to insure a proper repair and a properly operational system....clean it completely....lube it properly....and make sure the system is properly recharged.....of course, engine cooling pays an important part for operational pressures/temperatures.
Taking short cuts is a good method to insure that the repair will probably have to be accomplished more than once.....or twice.....perhaps....a third time.....
Good luck with the repair...



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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

terryk on Tue April 01, 2008 6:36 PM User is offline

I have a new compressor and accumulator from ACKits and a new hose on the way. I didn't mean to sound flippant about the photos. I just thought I was somewhere in the middle in damage level.

Can you tell me what active ingredient is acceptable for flushing? You can buy flush anywhere but from your comments it sounds like the mineral spirits based stuff is bad ju-ju.

I've been using Castrol flush and tons of air and gravity (like leaving it to blow for hours on end). I don't assume the vacuuming will vaporize the flush so I really go to lengths to get it out. I remove the evap and condenser so I can really attack them.

Thanks again for all of the information. Successes are great but you learn from failure. In this case the compressor was 17 years old when I converted and it survived 4 more years. I would think age caused the failure (and stress from the higher pressures) but if it's something I did, I want to know. Again, the orifice was loaded up but the compressor oil was pretty clean. Strange.

Thanks again,

Terry

iceman2555 on Wed April 02, 2008 10:11 AM User is offlineView users profile

There are two flush chemicals that are used by Castrol. One is an oil based flush and the other is a solvent. The solvent based flush is a heptane and alcohol flush. The second picture is a result of failure to remove all of this solvent based flush (another supplier, but same chemical). Be very careful that all of the flush is removed from your components. Never have trusted evacuation to remove these chemicals. The best method, is similar to what you are doing...air purge the system for an extended period of time. Not necessary to have full line pressure....30-40 psi of pressure blowing thru the component for 25-30 minutes is normally sufficient.
Just insure that ALL of the chemical is removed from the system....also be careful the chemical is flammable also.
The post stated a possible condenser replacement....if you desire to stay with 134a, this condenser is highly recommended. The newer more efficient condenser will greatly reduce high side pressures/temperatures.
Once this chemical is removed.....simply add lubricant, evac and recharge to OE specs.
Good luck



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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

terryk on Wed April 02, 2008 11:47 AM User is offline

I may be stuck with a factory replacement. I haven't been able to find a parallel flow condenser that will fit with the adapter lines. With the single tube it actually worked pretty dang good even at idle but you have to consider that in a Fiero you are essentially cooling a space the size of a glove box.

HECAT on Wed April 02, 2008 3:28 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: terryk


Can you tell me what active ingredient is acceptable for flushing? You can buy flush anywhere but from your comments it sounds like the mineral spirits based stuff is bad ju-ju.

I've been using Castrol flush and tons of air and gravity (like leaving it to blow for hours on end). I don't assume the vacuuming will vaporize the flush so I really go to lengths to get it out. I remove the evap and condenser so I can really attack them.

Terry

Terry, sorry to be so late to the party. I agree completely with the info provided by TRB and Iceman.

Gray slime that wipes off is tired high mileage oil, laden with fine high mileage wear particles and this is the pasty goo that has accumulated at the orifice screen. Black death will form a hard carbonized material that is near impossible to remove.

As far as flushing chemicals go, there are quite a few products that work well and quite a few that don't. My personal opinion when it comes to the "compressors that smell like solvents"; is that it may well be related to a poor performing chemical, but it is more related to a poor performing technician and the failure to remove.

The chemical chosen must be 100 volatile, that is it will evaporate. Some will take longer than others to evaporate with an air blow but they will. If it is an oil based flush or the MSDS indicates that it is anything less than 100 volatile, it is not coming out. Some say that material compatibility is of no concern when flushing just metal components and this may be true. I prefer not to recommend anything that is incompatible and will degrade seals and hoses as they are often used to flush difficult to access components.

You are correct in the fact that the vacuum pump WILL NOT remove these solvents. However, it can pull off some of the final trace after diligence has been employed to properly remove most all of it with the air blow.

I think you are on the right track and understand the diligence necessary to remove the cleaner. You should have no problems cleaning tube and fin components.

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

TRB on Wed April 02, 2008 4:02 PM User is offlineView users profile

We do use and recommend the Hecat Flush equipment.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

terryk on Thu April 03, 2008 11:50 AM User is offline

Last question! I almost promise....

Can you tell me what size suction port screen is needed for the HR6 Code 000207CP I just got from AC Kits? I can't find it on the site and the local store shows a couple of different sizes.

400026 .510"/12.95mm
400027 .552"/14.02mm
400028 .595"/15.11mm

Thanks!

Terry

TRB on Thu April 03, 2008 2:45 PM User is offlineView users profile

Sorry I have never used those screens.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

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