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HC12a Condenser Tests Pages: 12

paulw793 on Tue September 18, 2012 12:45 PM User is offline

Year: 1986
Make: BMW
Model: 528e
Engine Size: 2.7
Refrigerant Type: HC12a
Country of Origin: United States

I'm looking at putting HC-12a in my system to replace the R12 that leaked out long ago.

I'd like to start by saying, if you are just going to tell me not to use HC12a then please do not post. I have weighed the pros/cons and done plenty of research. It is my choice.

The original condenser in my car is a tube and fin style.

Has anybody tested themselves or read any tests showing the vent temperature of HC12a using a tube and fin vs. a parallel flow condenser?

I'd like to switch to a parallel flow, but it'll be a pain to get the hose made/routed.

If there isn't much difference, I'd like to use my original condenser.

I upgraded my compressor to a 7cyl. Sanden style and have removed my evaporator, changed the TXV, cleaned it and straightened fins. I also have a new drier.

TRB on Tue September 18, 2012 12:56 PM User is offlineView users profile

What performance tests has the manufacture pf HC112a done in this area? Can you point us to this data on the web?

-------------------------

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paulw793 on Tue September 18, 2012 1:09 PM User is offline

Here are some links:
This is the company that manufactures the cans I have: http://www.oztechnologyinc.com/hc12a.html
Alternative info source: http://bennettsupply.net/HC-12a.htm
Another alternative info source: http://www.hcrefrigerant.com/

Edited: Tue September 18, 2012 at 1:10 PM by paulw793

TRB on Tue September 18, 2012 1:19 PM User is offlineView users profile

None of those sites mention anything about condenser performance and or durability. Neither do they mention going from R12 to an HC is illegal in the United States.

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paulw793 on Tue September 18, 2012 1:26 PM User is offline

That's my problem.
I'm assuming, that because it takes a lower pressure to get the same performance it should preform better than R12 in a tube-fin condenser, but I don't know for certain as I can't find a real test.

The R12 has already leaked out and there is no trace of R12 left, so I guess technically I'm going from nothing to HC12a.

iceman2555 on Tue September 18, 2012 1:34 PM User is offlineView users profile

Where the heck is all this HC12a stuff coming from once more. Seems like each year....but the summer is almost over and now it pops up.
In response to the original post....since you have made your choice....what difference does it make what is posted here. It's your car.....GO FOR IT !!!


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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

paulw793 on Tue September 18, 2012 1:36 PM User is offline

iceman, I don't want to put all together and get a adequate A/C, that's why I'm not "going for it" lol.

I live in Florida; wet, sticky and hot. I want to be sure that if I use the tube and fin with HC12a I'm not going to continue sweating once the A/C is on. I still have a couple more months of AC weather. lol

TRB on Tue September 18, 2012 1:42 PM User is offlineView users profile

You will see little overall test data on this refrigerant, as in the big picture very few ever use it. I have always wondered why the HC proponents never set up a forum for these types of questions.

-------------------------

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pippo on Tue September 18, 2012 7:01 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: paulw793
That's my problem.

I'm assuming, that because it takes a lower pressure to get the same performance it should preform better than R12 in a tube-fin condenser, but I don't know for certain as I can't find a real test.



The R12 has already leaked out and there is no trace of R12 left, so I guess technically I'm going from nothing to HC12a.

If it "leaked out", have to had any luck in trying to locate leak? (not sure if you had dye in it......)If its a very slooooow leak, may be hard to find. If a moderate to bad leak, easier. You have to fix that leak first, paul. Then, you can go to phase II, which Id be happy to help......Im sure others will offer help too.

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beware of the arrival

iceman2555 on Wed September 19, 2012 10:08 AM User is offlineView users profile

If the concern is for more than adequate cooling....and you wish to perform the repair in a straight forward manner....to have a system that performs to OE r12 standards......then forget all the hype (bull chips) of hc12a and simply repair your system....completely repair your system and put r12 back in the damn thing. Quit the bitching....all the research that will prove nothing except and r12 system performs best with r12 as a refrigerant....simply return the system to OE specifications...there is an abundance of 12 in the market and the cost factors are acceptable.
Since the onset of the restrictions of r12, we have researched and tested many refrigerants...blends....additives....snake oil....'can make the system 20% cooler.....all the offerings of the 'free market' system and have discovered one very interesting fact....OE AC systems typically function the best when they are repaired to OE specifications.
By the way, Florida is my home also....I know the weather...the climate....and all the other adjectives to describe the weather.....yes, it is hot...but go where TRB lives...it is past being hot.....yes, it is humid....and humidity makes hot....more hot....TRB does not have humidity...he has 'dust storms'.....want it too cool....for the repair to be last longer than a short period of time.....repair it correctly....stay away from the hc12a.....all the blends....all the magic in a can......return to OE spec's and it will perform as designed.

-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

TRB on Wed September 19, 2012 11:02 AM User is offlineView users profile

We have humidity during the monsoon season old man. With 110 degree heat also, so next time you want nasty come and see me in August!!

-------------------------

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NickD on Wed September 19, 2012 11:18 AM User is offline

Last time I looked, been awhile HC-12 is illegal for MVAC use, its a blend of propane and butane gases in an attempt to emulate R-12. As I recall, butane is lighter and will leak out first over pressurizing the system. Maybe I have that backwards, but what difference does that make, will still blow up.

Driving my 88 Supra turbo again after about a ten year storage. Was about 5 ounces low on R-12, couldn't find any leaks so topped it off, baby will freeze you out. Stick with R-12 if your car is worth anything to you.

Already had three offers to buy it in the 10K range, could never buy a car that nice for 10K.

TRB on Wed September 19, 2012 11:23 AM User is offlineView users profile

It is Nick, but you will never change the mind of someone that wants to use that crap in their vehicle. The hype is out there and these guys sell this stuff on a street corner like a drug dealer.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

iceman2555 on Wed September 19, 2012 2:08 PM User is offlineView users profile

Yes, but you only have 'humidity' during the monsoons when it washes all the dust from the air and makes mud which floods the streets due to the hardness of the ground due to lack of rain prior to the 'monsoon' season.
We have humidity ALL the time...day...nite....dry or during our 'monsoon' season....and we have had that already this year. When will people learn that when you build a home upon dirt that was used to fill a swamp area that when the 'monsoon' comes then the likely hood of that 'reclaimed' swamp area will once more revert to that which nature made long ago....back to a 'swamp'.
TRB, hope you are well .

-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

TRB on Wed September 19, 2012 2:12 PM User is offlineView users profile

Doing OK my friend. Not ready for the retirement community in Florida yet!

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

mk378 on Wed September 19, 2012 4:12 PM User is offline

Experience I've heard with HC is that it works pretty good in CCOT systems but not so well with TXVs, as the pressure curve just doesn't match what the valve is expecting. Definitely do a thorough check for leaks first. HC is a blend and will fractionate as it leaks out causing performance problems. Once you know that your system is tight you should just charge it with R-12.

NickD on Wed September 19, 2012 4:42 PM User is offline

As I recall, if I can recall, BMW's never cooled very well when brand new. My then rich executives were driving those, remember it was very hot in those things.

I got an 86 Maxima instead, called the poor man's BMW, but poor men have to work their cans off, and that Maxima cooled very well. Hard working guys deserve to be cool, LOL.

pippo on Wed September 19, 2012 8:19 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: NickD
Last time I looked, been awhile HC-12 is illegal for MVAC use, its a blend of propane and butane gases in an attempt to emulate R-12. As I recall, butane is lighter and will leak out first over pressurizing the system. Maybe I have that backwards, but what difference does that make, will still blow up.




Nick,

Butane is heavier than propane. "but" means 4 (Greek word for fat), "prop" means 3 (Greek word for Butter). Butane has 4 C in backbone, propane has 3. And propane is lighter, if is does fractionate, it will seep out first (leakage, seepage from barrier hoses, etc) IN THEORY. That slow seepage will never cause a flame/fire. Impossible. "Blow up" also, means different things. Like the overused "Boom". Theres boom, and then theres boom. Theres a whole science behind explosions. Cars are not a stranger to danger/risk/explosion. Even before HC's.

Just saying......

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beware of the arrival

NickD on Fri September 21, 2012 8:59 AM User is offline

Been a long time since HC's were discussed, didn't commit those parameters to memory and stated could be backwards, so it is. Just only use the refrigerant prescribed for the system. And wouldn't put any kind of blend in any AC system. EPA approved or not.

Over the years on this board, had guys here that successfully converted an R-12 BMW to R-134a by doing a complete firewall forward conversion with even improved results that is another option. Even worthwhile if the existing system is at the end of its road, something to consider.

bohica2xo on Mon September 24, 2012 6:52 PM User is offline

Well, since I don't care what you think about my posting...

Eurotrash cars from the 1980's had crap for A/C they day they were made. The BMW was easily some of the worst of the bunch. Undersized condensors, restricted airflow through tiny grilles, etc. Designed by europeans to drive down the autobahn at 120 mph on a 75 degree day. In traffic in Las Vegas or Miami you might as well roll down the windows.

Using HC as a direct replacement for R12 is not legal, but that obviously does not concern you. Put whatever you want in there, that tube & fin unit was never big enough in the first place.

I have a lot of experience running HC's in stationary chillers. Great refrigerant in the right place. Your BMW is not the right place. Replace the R12 with R12. Replace the tube & fin with a high capacity parallel flow condensor. Or roll the windows down.

.

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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

TRB on Mon September 24, 2012 8:33 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
Well, since I don't care what you think about my posting...



Eurotrash cars from the 1980's had crap for A/C they day they were made. The BMW was easily some of the worst of the bunch. Undersized condensors, restricted airflow through tiny grilles, etc. Designed by europeans to drive down the autobahn at 120 mph on a 75 degree day. In traffic in Las Vegas or Miami you might as well roll down the windows.



Using HC as a direct replacement for R12 is not legal, but that obviously does not concern you. Put whatever you want in there, that tube & fin unit was never big enough in the first place.



I have a lot of experience running HC's in stationary chillers. Great refrigerant in the right place. Your BMW is not the right place. Replace the R12 with R12. Replace the tube & fin with a high capacity parallel flow condensor. Or roll the windows down.



.

I am not sure I understand you point. Can you elaborate a little more.

-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

fireguywtc on Mon September 24, 2012 10:17 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: pippo
Quote
Last time I looked, been awhile HC-12 is illegal for MVAC use, its a blend of propane and butane gases in an attempt to emulate R-12. As I recall, butane is lighter and will leak out first over pressurizing the system. Maybe I have that backwards, but what difference does that make, will still blow up.

Butane is heavier than propane. "but" means 4 (Greek word for fat), "prop" means 3 (Greek word for Butter). Butane has 4 C in backbone, propane has 3. And propane is lighter, if is does fractionate, it will seep out first (leakage, seepage from barrier hoses, etc) IN THEORY. That slow seepage will never cause a flame/fire. Impossible. "Blow up" also, means different things. Like the overused "Boom". Theres boom, and then theres boom. Theres a whole science behind explosions. Cars are not a stranger to danger/risk/explosion. Even before HC's.



Just saying......I am not totally sure what you are getting at but I think you are technically right about small leaks. They will likely never combust because the release will be far to lean to ignite. From my head, I recall HC12 having a lower explosive limit (LEL) of around 1.2 to 1.4%. (I didn't look it up but I think its close) That is the percentage it takes to begin igniting in the atmosphere. That small percentage would be very easy to achieve during a fast leak, especially during a collision that ruputres the AC system. It seems likely that during an accident you would have both an ignitable mixture of HC 12 and an ignition source (sparks from the impact) to start a fire. If there are identified risk in cars already, why add to them? I would worry more about the liability of causing injury or death of another person during an accident and loss of insurance coverage from using HC12 as well. Probably cheaper in the long run to run R12 or convert to 134.



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1970 Ford F250 4x4
2007 Ford F350

doctorbee on Thu September 27, 2012 3:50 PM User is offline

He's saying your OEM AC sucks. You need to keep using R12 and upgrade the tube and fin condensor (AC radiator in front of the car) to a modern parallel flow design.

Quote
Originally posted by: TRB
Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
Well, since I don't care what you think about my posting...







Eurotrash cars from the 1980's had crap for A/C they day they were made. The BMW was easily some of the worst of the bunch. Undersized condensors, restricted airflow through tiny grilles, etc. Designed by europeans to drive down the autobahn at 120 mph on a 75 degree day. In traffic in Las Vegas or Miami you might as well roll down the windows.







Using HC as a direct replacement for R12 is not legal, but that obviously does not concern you. Put whatever you want in there, that tube & fin unit was never big enough in the first place.







I have a lot of experience running HC's in stationary chillers. Great refrigerant in the right place. Your BMW is not the right place. Replace the R12 with R12. Replace the tube & fin with a high capacity parallel flow condensor. Or roll the windows down.







.



I am not sure I understand you point. Can you elaborate a little more.

TRB on Thu September 27, 2012 3:57 PM User is offlineView users profile

Doc, I knew exactly what Brad was getting at.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

doctorbee on Thu September 27, 2012 6:00 PM User is offline

oh. sarcasm.

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