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Hecat pulsator solvents Pages: 12

aliaZ on Sun December 12, 2010 5:45 PM User is offline

Can any solvent such as lacquer thinner or mineral spirits be used with this flushing system? I've had issues using some solvents with the cheap flush kits; it causes the rubber o-rings in the flush gun attachment to swell up and fail.

Thanks

TRB on Mon December 13, 2010 9:57 AM User is offlineView users profile

We only use the Hecat flush products in our equipment. I've seem other OTC flushing agents eat seals in the past. Best to wait and see what Karl has to say.

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HECAT on Mon December 13, 2010 3:01 PM User is offline

Lacquer thinner is comprised of various chemicals (xylene, alcohol, etc) with many different formulations tailored to the specific target application of the manufacturer. As the specific formula's vary and many contain alcohol, it is not a recommended flush for A/C system cleaning.

Mineral Sprits is a petroleum distillate and was a solvent of choice when flushing out mineral oils. It is not compatible with the synthetic PAG and POE oils.

HECAT Safe-Flush is designed specifically as an A/C flush; comprised of Petroleum and Turpene Hydrocarbon Distillates, miscible with Mineral, PAG, & POE oils (all oils), completely compatible with the common metals and nonmetallic materials (no swelling), and will air dry down to negligible trace.

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FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

aliaZ on Mon December 13, 2010 5:39 PM User is offline

If I wanted to use the Hecat for cleaning something other than AC system parts, can it handle different types of solvents? The safe flush is expensive, so I'd rather use cheaper solvents on items that don't require compatibility with refrigerant oils.

Are there rubber seals within the system that will get eaten by common solvents?

Thanks

HECAT on Tue December 14, 2010 7:45 AM User is offline

Your equipment fitting question in your other post (this one) indicates a non-HECAT "Pulsating" flusher.

A solvent used in a HECAT flusher requires a material compatibility analysis; and for the pulse to work as designed, it must have a specific gravity of 1 or less (with 1 being water).

HECAT flusher equipment materials are Steel, SS, Aluminum, Brass, Copper, Buna-N (NBR, HNBR), Nylon, PVC, Polycarbonate, & Acetal. Products that contain caustic or corrosive acids, water, alcohol, gasoline, products that foam (soaps), highly flammable products (aerosolized), and highly evaporative (too low boiling point) solvents are not recommended.

We recommend Safe-Flush A/C for A/C work and it is also used for other petroleum and synthetic oil residue removal from heat exchangers. Our confidence in the cleaning ability of Safe-Flush and its compatibility with our equipment allows us to offer a lifetime warranty on our professional Pulsator Series of Flushers. For oil cooler cleaning, other petroleum based distillates such as mineral spirits (aka: Exxon Varsol, white solvent, stoddard solvent, etc) can be used.

If using your A/C cleaner to clean "something else", which is easy to do, and can readily be done; solvent residues remaining, mixing, and incompatibilities can often be overlooked. This may not be good for your next A/C use (i.e. cross contamination).

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FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 


Edited: Tue December 14, 2010 at 7:59 AM by HECAT

aliaZ on Tue December 14, 2010 10:49 AM User is offline

Does mineral spirits leave a residue when completely evaporated?

I've always used this as a flushing agent and thoroughly blow it dry. Haven't had any issues yet. I've tried other solvents that quickly destroyed the o-rings in my flush nozzle, so I just use mineral spirits now.

I am considering buying your Hecat system, as I have a job coming up that will require it. The warranty remains valid if I use mineral spirits?

Thanks

TRB on Tue December 14, 2010 10:59 AM User is offlineView users profile

Yes mineral spirits will leave a residue. I suggest mineral spirits for getting the nasty stuff out and a follow up flush with Safe Flush to remove this residue.

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aliaZ on Tue December 14, 2010 4:53 PM User is offline

Can Safe Flush be reused at all, or is it a one-shot deal?

Thanks

TRB on Tue December 14, 2010 4:59 PM User is offlineView users profile

It can be filtered for the nasty stuff. I always like to use fresh for the final flush.

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Edited: Tue December 14, 2010 at 4:59 PM by TRB

HECAT on Tue December 14, 2010 7:24 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: aliaZ
Does mineral spirits leave a residue when completely evaporated?

I've always used this as a flushing agent and thoroughly blow it dry. Haven't had any issues yet. I've tried other solvents that quickly destroyed the o-rings in my flush nozzle, so I just use mineral spirits now.

I am considering buying your Hecat system, as I have a job coming up that will require it. The warranty remains valid if I use mineral spirits?

Thanks

All solvents leave residue. How much is dependant upon the solvent (mineral spirits leaves a mineral oil residue) combined with the diligence and methods employed to dry it out. A 1 year warranty will be honored on specific HECAT flushers if using Mineral Sprits.


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FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

aliaZ on Wed December 15, 2010 5:03 PM User is offline

Are the Hecat flushers rebuildable?

If the residue of mineral spirits is mineral oil, I would think that would work fine with BVA Auto 100 since it is commonly used in R134a retrofits because of it's compatibility with traces of residual mineral oil?

Thanks

HECAT on Thu December 16, 2010 11:26 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: aliaZ
Are the Hecat flushers rebuildable?

If the residue of mineral spirits is mineral oil, I would think that would work fine with BVA Auto 100 since it is commonly used in R134a retrofits because of it's compatibility with traces of residual mineral oil?

Thanks

Yes, the assembly process of any HECAT flusher can be reversed to replace all the soft parts should they become permanently damaged by an incompatible cleaner. We manufacture many hard parts, but most soft parts are commercially available. Some models would be easier to rebuild than others.

POE oils are more friendly and less likely (than PAG), to react (form acids or "goo") with mineral residues, inside an operating system. If you can get things clean down to "trace" residue, this is usually not the contributor to lubrication failures & issues; the real problems almost always occur with more generous mixing of different oils (believing retrofit labels), incompatible cleaning solvents, and other "stuff".

Remember, just because mineral "trace" residues may do no harm; this does not make Mineral Spirits (petroleum derived) the proper solvent to remove PAG & POE (synthetic) oils. It is only an appropriate solvent to remove mineral oil.



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FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

aliaZ on Fri December 17, 2010 11:24 AM User is offline

Quote
Remember, just because mineral "trace" residues may do no harm; this does not make Mineral Spirits (petroleum derived) the proper solvent to remove PAG & POE (synthetic) oils. It is only an appropriate solvent to remove mineral oil.

The vast amount of work I do is converting from R12 to R134a, so I should be ok using mineral spirits for this purpose.

The Hecat system I am considering is this:

https://www.ackits.com/pc/PULSATOR-KIT/Flush/PULSATOR-KIT+-+The+%22Pulsator%22+DIY+Flush+Machine

Thanks for your help.

iceman2555 on Sat December 18, 2010 9:34 AM User is offlineView users profile

A very strong suggestion would be not to use mineral spirits in any AC flush procedure. This chemical was never designed as a AC flush and serious damage can occur to the system. This produce is impossible to remove from the system, it does have an adverse effect on the system.
Never understand why so many DIY'ers and even techs suddenly become chemical engineers when the subject of AC flush comes up. Heck, if it cleans brake dust, grease, all types of oil related products from the system...then what the heck...must be good for the AC also.
Completed an evaluation of a compressor failure last week....pulled the port seals off...and damn....what an odor....seemed so familiar...but hey this is a AC compressor....not a engine...could it be...no...nOOOOO....NOOOOOO....never...not in a compressor.....but yep...it was....maybe you guessed it by now....go ole....$3.00/gal.....gas.....yes..the stuff that goes in the tank....makes flames...is combustible.....but what the heck....it does clean brake dust....grease....and other oil related products...must be great for an AC system. Inverted the compressor and this dark green liquid flowed from the unit....it 'FLUSH' had totally destroyed the lubricant which totally destroyed the compressor.........now get this...the warranty tag stated this was an technical shop...not a DIY'er...but someone who should have known better....GAS....in a AC system.
Did some experiments with 'BRAKE CLEAN'....ya'll know the stuff...that other fantastic AC flush.....discovered that it will not in most cases will not effect PAG's or POE's. Does break down the lube...but clean.....no...nope..but what the heck....the NO 1 flush in the US....yep...for sure.... Removed app 12 oz of brake clean as part of the flush procedure....placed this residual amount in a glass container...covered the opening..not completely...but app 80%....left it on the test bench for over 22 hrs.....anyone wish to take a guess how much chemical as left after this extended period of time......post you response...love to see what ya thing.
If you are a 'pro'....or a DIY'er...rethink your position.....there are great alternative....acceptable flush chemicals in the market....some clean....some do not....all will require adequate air purge to remove residuals....Mineral spirits will not be removed by air purge or evacuation......do not be CHEAP with your repair.....it will cost you in the long run.
Secondly...please post what compressor manufacturer you utilize or what jobber you purchase parts ...... just curious!!!!!!!!!!

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

TRB on Sat December 18, 2010 1:21 PM User is offlineView users profile

iceman2555, what issue do you see using mineral spirits to clean out the nasty stuff and then do a follow up flush using a product like Hecat's Safe Flush?


-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

bohica2xo on Sat December 18, 2010 6:50 PM User is offline

Just curious Iceman, how do you feel about Odorless Kerosene as a flushing agent?

B.



-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

HECAT on Mon December 20, 2010 2:44 PM User is offline

While waiting for Iceman to respond, I'll comment...

I have found that the petroleum derived solvents (brake cleaner, mineral spirits, low odor stuff like Exxon varsol, aka odorless kerosene) are excellent degreasers for petroleum derived oil and grease. Although these products vary greatly with their flammability, boiling points, and evaporative nature; I have spoken with many customers who use many of these products to flush A/C and swear they are having no problems. Elastomer material compatibility can sometimes be moot when isolating the metal component only for cleaning.

I believe the brunt of the problems that result from using these or any other solvent product, is directly related to the lack of effort and diligence in the removal process. Trace residues will remain from any solvent used; but if you can get it down to such miniscule trace levels the odds are you will have no problem.

I have never hidden the formula, and do provide the CAS numbers on the Safe-Flush MSDS. It uses a similar low odor petroleum distillate as the base, but we do add a synthetic derived distillate to improve the solvency with PAG and POE oils. Safe-Flush is no magic bullet; it is designed to be a generic A/C flush suitable for the removal of all oil types. It is slow to evaporate so it will remain liquid with the air operated flushing methods. It has a low flammability characteristic and is not DOT regulated as a Haz-Mat. It will require time and a generous air purge to completely remove it, and evaporate it down to trace levels. If it is not removed properly, it will cause problems also.

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FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

bohica2xo on Mon December 20, 2010 11:53 PM User is offline

Hecat:

Those chemicals are indeed good at carrying other petroleum based products along with them. You are correct, the issue lies with the removal of the product. The final boiling point of something like gr1 Stoddard Solvent is too high to expect evaporation to remove it easily.

Aromatic hydrocarbons like Toluene work well, but may work TOO well on some elastomers. If a bare metal, piece by piece flushing of components can be done - some very powerful & fast drying solvents can be used. Of course the aromatic hydrocarbons pose a greater fire hazard with the low flash points - things like acetone have a flash point of 3f. Acetone is also miscible with water, but that I will leave for another day.

The Monoterpene you use in your flush has a very high flash point, and can be difficult to remove. Which you of course cover very well in your instructions and flushing dissertations. It takes air. A LOT of it. At fairly high velocities. That will remove the flushing solvent. Your experience with the flushing process is extensive, and I believe you are using the best solvent blend that you can actually sell on today's over legislated (and litigated) market.

Have you ever done any testing on current refrigeration lubricants to see what effect small quantities of your solvent would have if left behind?

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

aliaZ on Tue December 21, 2010 1:54 AM User is offline

When I flush a system, I typically break it down into individual components anyways, so I'm not concerned about the effects a powerful solvent may have on elastomers. It sounds to me that a good approach would be to flush first with Safe Flush because of its ability to remove all types of refrigerant oils, and then follow with a rinse using a solvent that evaporates much more readily than Safe Flush. "It is slow to evaporate so it will remain liquid with the air operated flushing methods" doesn't describe an ideal final flush to me. I'd also prefer to use a final flush that boils off under vacuum in case there is any residual...

HECAT on Tue December 21, 2010 4:03 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
Hecat:

The Monoterpene you use in your flush has a very high flash point, and can be difficult to remove. Which you of course cover very well in your instructions and flushing dissertations. It takes air. A LOT of it. At fairly high velocities. That will remove the flushing solvent. Your experience with the flushing process is extensive, and I believe you are using the best solvent blend that you can actually sell on today's over legislated (and litigated) market.

Have you ever done any testing on current refrigeration lubricants to see what effect small quantities of your solvent would have if left behind?

B.

It does not take much "terpene solvent" to meet the goal of making making it more soluble with the synthetic oils; so we do not raise the flammability issue out of the "combustible" range. I know you understand there is a big difference between what exotic chemicals could possibly be used in a safe and consciences way, and what one can offer for sale and shipment to the general public.

I have done miscibility, material stability, and removal (weight) test; but no, I have not done any such lubricity tests. I also have many years of my own and my customers successful use tests (field studies). Subjective small quantities may be more than I am willing to consider acceptable.

The current SAE J2670 (additive stability) specification in one of the multiple tests, calls for a mixture of 20% additive with 80% oil; and for this mixture not to change the oils viscosity by +/-5% (I believe that is correct, from memory). Any solvent "worth its salt" for A/C flushing would fail this test. I do aspire to convince the SAE to review such "additive" specifications; at which time I may be able to conduct (or have done) such lubricity tests.





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FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

HECAT on Tue December 21, 2010 4:11 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: aliaZ
"It is slow to evaporate so it will remain liquid with the air operated flushing methods" doesn't describe an ideal final flush to me. I'd also prefer to use a final flush that boils off under vacuum in case there is any residual...

Compressed air is one of the most common method of introducing A/C flushing solvents. If the flush agent evaporates very easily, it will do so in the air stream, make lots of solvent fumes, make you think you are doing a great job; but in reality you are flushing nothing.

Solvent removal is not a process your vacuum pump is designed for. Make sure you change your vacuum pump oil after ingesting solvents. I would suggest you consider a back up pump.

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

bohica2xo on Tue December 21, 2010 7:54 PM User is offline

Hecat:

Any "flush" that could meet J2670 would be useless.

A good starting point would be a weigh in / weigh out flush with a fixed volume & time on the air blast. This would give you a residual number to test with based on an average system with say 8 ounces of lubricant. You could then dilute various lubricant samples with the same percentage, and run them through the Falex.

Yeah, I think I would stick with the empirical field data too.

If I had to pick a solvent that could be recovered under vacuum, it would be Toluene. A nice, simple hydrocarbon C7H8. It mimics water fairly well - a boiling point of 110c, and a flash point of 4c. It would be carried off in a vacuum just about like water is. Except for the flammability of course. I can't recommend using a regular vacuum pump for that, simply because the toluene vapors would be vented in the vicinity of an open electric motor - the pump driver.

Sigh. Life was much simpler when we could flush with R11.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

iceman2555 on Wed December 22, 2010 10:38 AM User is offlineView users profile

Hey, guys, been away for a bit....wish you all a very Merry Christmas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

bohica, never tried the "OK" but will do so this year. My concern would be the low flash point (flammable) and high evaporation point making it almost impossible to remove from the system. I know that there are some very serious chemicals in the market that will do wondrous jobs of cleaning an AC system and it is also known that there are just a many that will do serious harm to the system. We in the industry must be abide by certain standards and remain within legal considerations. Recommending a certain chemical that could have adverse effects on the human body (flammability) are all serious considerations for upper management.

One issue we must keep in mind is that the average technician desires a flush that can be 'blown' thru a system and will remove all residuals, evaporate within 2 seconds and leave no residuals. Unfortunately, this chemical does not exist...or at least, I have not encountered it. We have been 'playing' with different flush chems for the last year or so...and have experienced some amazing results. Most do not work....could be the formulations.....others it is the volume of the chemical.....getting this stuff out of the system is a major concern. No serious long term studies about the break down of lube due to residual flush chems. We look at evaluations of failures and have discovered many instances when the lubricant is or has been totally destroyed by the residual flush chem's. Often this condition is very evident by the heavy chemical odor remaining in the system. When ever possible and if sufficient contaminated lube remains we have conducted analysis of this residual blend. Results have indicated chemical residues that or not normally part of either PAG or POE chemical constructions. Although there are some strange PAG and POE blends out there....but that could be another topic discussion.

Testing has indicated that fast evaporating chemicals will not clean a system. Not thoroughly clean the system...yes it removes traces of contamination...but to really clean heavy debris from the system the flush must remain in a liquid state thru out the flush procedure. This requires a total re evaluation of the flush procedure if one wishes to remain with the ' flush can' and introduce the flush with a 'flush gun'.
The use of a closed loop flush machine similar the Hecat machine or the CPS unit work very well. This flush method has proven to be the most efficient method to insure complete cleaning of the system.
Following suggested procedures (instructions) we have found that both of these machines work very well and are part of our recommended procedure in our training programs.

The issue with 'blow thru' is the lack of sufficient chemical to clean the system. When examples of these chemicals and flush procedures have been utilized and then the system is 're-flushed' with a closed loop machine, we often encounter removal of additional debris. The 'blow thru' and fast evaporating chems seem to accomplish a very good 'cosmetic' flush but no remove the heavier material. Recently completed a flush on a '96 Ranger. The compressor was noisy but was still functioning. Draining of the lube did not indicate a serious contamination problem. We flushed with a 'blow thru' and one of the more popular flush chems on the market. We captured the flush as it exited the system and filtered the removed material. We used some serious hi tech filtration systems........paint filters for the first filter and then.....coffee filters......gotta remember, I'm on a budget.

The first chem did an acceptable job....some light debris removal and some discoloration of the flush chem was evident. We then re-flushed utilizing a closed loop machine and a flush chemical supplied by BVA. I must say that I was amazed at the material that was removed from the system. The captured flush was highly contaminated with excessive debris and extremely discolored....a very dark gray/black material was removed from the previously 'cleaned' system. This is the material that the 'blow thru' and fast evaporating chemicals leave behind. This material we removed with the 'second' flush is the problem material remaining in the system that result in replacement compressor failures.

One issue with AC flush and tech's today is the totally misunderstanding of what the flush procedure is and what we are attempting to accomplish. Most techs do not flush..".hey...the orifice was clean....that means no debris....and the 'oil' was clean....no need to flush....right...." Flushing is considered by many as a 'waste of time'. Many have no understanding of chemicals and what they accomplish or what they do not. This should not be considered a 'hit' on the techs...heck...I'm one...I'm not a chem engineer......hell....my degree is in economics......but a truth of the AC repair market. Brake Clean works for cleaning brake parts...so there fore it must work for cleaning AC system. It also becomes a time element.....'never have time to do it right.....but always have time to do it again'. Proper service of the AC system requires time.....unfortunately this is a requirement for a proper operational system. Why can the OE's install a compressor on a vehicle and it will function for years....the aftermarket installs a compressor on a vehicle and we are fortunate if it functions for a year??????? Not knowing what chemicals work and how they affect the system does not seem to be an issue the installer...it becomes a cost concern....this one is cheap...it cleans the floor.....removes paint from valve covers....can be used as starter fluid......surely this will clean a AC system. We have tested warm soapy water as a flush.....guess what it will clean PAG,POE and serious contamination from AC parts.....NO I AM NOT SUGGESTING THIS AS A FLUSH.....but if you want cheap.....cleaning......not to sure how to get all this 'stuff' out of the system.....but what the heck..it works.

This could go on and on....but what we as techs must look at is that flushing of the AC system has become a integral part of the repair. This procedure is as important as the method of recharge...it must be accomplished properly. This is not a matter of simply removal of 'old lube' but of completely cleaning the system....not a matter of what chemicals MAY work...but of those that do work and work properly or which procedure offers the expected results compared to the 'I've been doing this for 30 years .........' The AC system has changed drastically in the last years and we must adapt as well...or suffer the consequences.....but then....it's not me...must be these darn imported compressors.......ahh....but most OE compressors are......imported. Had a guy call me a few weeks ago....wanted an American made OE Denso compressor.......boggles the mind.

Ya'll have fun out there today.


This a procedure that the successful technician will utilize to insure a proper repair.







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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

bohica2xo on Thu December 23, 2010 3:35 AM User is offline

Iceman & Hecat:

We can go on for weeks over chemicals.

I picture flushing as a process with two levels. For some situations the goal is simply to remove all of the previous lubricant charges to restore a system to OEM charge levels...

Then there is the filthy stuff. Blown compressors, oil cocktails etc. Today's condensors are the primary filter, and I still recommend tossing most of them after a compressor grenades. By the time you see shavings on an OT, there is not much else to do. That leaves the balance of the components.

A medium volatile like Stoddard Solvent could be left in the system as a soak for days without issue. Completely filling a system with Stoddard Solvent overnight to soak would actually be a good place to start (I do this with diesel engine oil coolers). A Liquid like that could be easily (and safely) recovered as a liquid from the system. The same sort of solvent could be used in a closed loop (recirculating) liquid flushing process as well.

But how do you get the Stoddard out without blasting an aerosol all over the place with compressed air? I think you guys know my answer to this problem, but it will never be mainstream until someone like Hecat packages it up as a complete system. Perhaps a change to 123a would make it more acceptable?

I really think flushing needs two steps to do things well, and get all of the flush material back out.

Many companies walk the fine line between "Combustible" and "Flammable" products, selling & shipping solvents that are as close to flammable as they can get to improve cleaning power. Many of the flammable solvents are not a great choice either. Acetone is miscible with water, and can leave the water behind because of it's low boiling point. The Xylenes have a boiling point above 135c, and it is possible to leave more behind than you think. Xylene residue would be a bad thing to mix with PAG too. Lacquer thinner at the hardware store level is almost always a mix of recovered solvents, and will contain MEK, Toluene, Acetone, MIBK, Xylenes... Really the only thing worse is cheap parts store spray carb cleaner. If you want to see what a solvent is leaving behind, clean a piece of glass completely. Spray (drip, pour etc) some of the solvent on the glass. Let it dry. Now pick the glass up and see if there is a film on it.

I am sure that soapy water works great on PAG, but most folks would not get it back out of the system well enough (or fast enough) to prevent it from doing corrosive damage.

Any way you slice it, systems are changing. TSR's will become more common as the years go by.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

iceman2555 on Thu December 23, 2010 7:34 PM User is offlineView users profile

Bohica, agreement on most all of your ideas. Our problem is that the average (?) AC tech will often not invest the time to service/repair the system as it should. Heck we can not get them to spend the hour necessary to flush now....adding in an over nite soak.....doubt it will ever happen. The use of various chemicals will be in our face till .....just until....never gonna go away.
Ahh for the days of R11 and those other wondrous chemicals.....damn the four headed-two legged frogs....give us the good stuff......!!!!!!
Would be nice to have the 'magic' fingers and simply snap reality into some ' thick 'noggins'....but hell...if snapping the fingers was the answer....think I'll snap for something much more conducive for my own......mmmm....a new younger body....sharper mind....dark hair (yeah!!!).....great health.....and of course.....a major PowerBall win......but alas....never hurts to dream.....
Merry Christmas guys, thanks to the Lord for another year......may the next one bring our troops home safely.

-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

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