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Speaking of tools. Pages: 12

FrankD. on Sun May 14, 2006 4:36 PM User is offline

I have been looking for a forum that is for automotive tools discussion.

So far all I have found is a Craftsman tool forum.
On the Craftsman forum only employees of Sears are allowed to post.
LOL what a bunch of tools!

http://www.craftsmantooltalk.com/BBS/

Speaking of tools.


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FrankD.

Edited: Fri July 07, 2006 at 2:10 PM by FrankD.

NickD on Mon May 15, 2006 1:38 PM User is offline

Well we can talk about, but what can we do about it?

Every new component requires some kind of special tool that makes servicing rather expensive.

Of a more general nature that bugs me is these guys got some kind of strange idea that the smaller either a box or open end wrench is, the shorter that wrench has to be. Not very handy to have a 10 mm box end that is only 3" long when the bolt you are trying to get loose is a foot down inside a one inch space. I do have a rather limited set of tappet wrenches, but they are strictly inch and never could find a metric set. And after much searching did find some wrenches that were more in the 8-10 inch length range, but the small bolt head sizes are still much shorter!

So do guys that design automotive wrenches ever work on a vehicle? Did they ever see a vehicle? I don't feel so.

Impact wrenches and sockets are great, but only if you have your engine sitting on your kitchen table where you can get at stuff. But do you really want to pull the engine/transaxle assembly, plus all those refrigerant and fluid carrying hoses just to change a water pump?

Ha, what good are tamper proof Torx bits when you can buy the bits anywhere? And why do they cost three times as much?

Twelve point sockets are excellent for rounding the head on a bolt since bolts are made of solder now instead of tool steel. Well, as soft as solder, but solder does not corrode.

Why do they call easi-outs, easy outs? If the very large head of a bolt snaps off, what gives them an idea that drilling an even smaller hole through the treaded end is going work since that is corroded solid to the base metal. And putting a soft stamped CRS bolt in aluminum, well that is crazy.

Guess I have more questions on this subject than answers.

k5guy on Mon May 15, 2006 10:09 PM User is offline

LOL We used to weld the old bolt in place, then drill a new hole, and tap it. Of course you need a welder, a drill, bits, and a tap set to do it.

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Send me e-mail

NickD on Tue May 16, 2006 7:40 AM User is offline

Also need space for that drill that seems nonexistent anymore. Was thinking about drill bits, have a 35 year old Craftsman set that is still complete and have yet to break a bit from that set, plus a complete set of lettered, numbered, and fractional that seemed to find their way home from a tool crib I was working at in the 60's. Today's drill bits are crap, even Craftsman, B&D, or any other name brand, if you tip the drill more than 1*, the bit will snap off. Guess they forgot how to make a decent drill bit.

Was never that bad to drill out a bolt in cast iron, aluminum is miserable as it is so much softer, do you suppose if a bolt breaks, you are suppose to pitch the entire assembly?

Bigchris on Tue May 16, 2006 11:25 AM User is offline

On the other hand, if your business is selling drill bits, how many will you sell if they last 35 years? Better to sell bits that dull quickly so you can sell $150 Drill Doctors to resharpen them.

NickD on Tue May 16, 2006 1:33 PM User is offline

Have a drill bit sharpening attachment for my bench grinder, that is no problem for dull bits, problem is with broken bits especially when they break like a glass cup into hundreds of tiny pieces. Day is ruined when a bit breaks off inside a hole of a bolt, but manage to get those out with a pointed grinding bit on a Dremmel. If a bolt breaks off in shops around here, they just leave it, and the welder is the most common tool for putting tractor parts on in farm country. Makes life a bit difficult if you have to replace worn king pins with the entire steering mechanism all welded.

Bigchris on Tue May 16, 2006 3:15 PM User is offline

I hear you. I once bought a VW beetle for suspension parts only to discover that a previous owner had welded the front torsion rod tubes to the belly pan. Ruined my whole day!

FrankD. on Wed May 17, 2006 3:26 AM User is offline



I was going to ask simple questions like how does S-K box wrenches compare to Snap-on box wrenches.


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FrankD.

CF6Mech on Wed May 17, 2006 10:41 AM User is offline

As an aircraft mechanic working on big and little jet engines there are a few places nothing will work but a Snap-Off...er Rip-Off...um, Snap-On. Like on the Turbine section that gets up to upmpteen thousand degrees and bakes all the antiseize out. Even the Snap-Ons will break when you have to use a 3 FOOT breaker bar and that's after a 2 hour soak with Aero-Kroil or Knocker Loose! BUT, for everyday wrench'n I've got a box full of Craftsman. SK are also good and I've got a few Proto that are also great. Snap-On are EXPENSIVE!. But, they are forged rather than cast and they are also meatier the most standard wrenches. If you got the money, honey...they got the time.

my $.02

NickD on Wed May 17, 2006 10:53 AM User is offline

Feel this is more a question of taste and how much you want to spend, how the tool feels in your hand, and whether its functional or not. Does either SnapOn or SK make a 10 mm box end wrench 12" long? The end of the box end wrench has to be thin to fit in there and they all are pretty much the same. For long lasting, should have a nice chrome finish. Most of my tools are from Craftsman, on sale, but the complete set I purchased 45 years ago still has a nice shiny chrome finish where wrenches I purchased even less than ten years ago are rusty.

On a Sunday needed a set of 3/8" drive deep sockets and the only store opened was K-Mart so purchased a set of 12 for around nine bucks, made the comment to my son that probably will break the socket the first time we used them, but what they heck, they are guaranteed for life. Nice thin sockets and I pounded the heck out of these even using on my impact wrench with a 1/2 to 3/8" adapter. Never broke a socket yet and the chrome finish is still intact, no rust. That was 25 years ago.

Our local Fleet Farm store was selling TrueCraft tools made in Japan, very inexpensive and super high quality, most of my 1/4" drive sockets are from them, but Fleet quit carrying them. Looking at impact sockets, all pretty much the same and all are too fat to fit into a tight spot unless you are removing an old fashion lug nut, not these alloy wheel type that requires a deep socket, ha, out comes the BenchMarks and the adapter.

Have friends that have all SnapOn, but losing even a socket is a major disaster as the replacement cost is high and at times they seem to be spending more time cleaning and organizing their tools then getting the job done. I firmly believe in organizing and never lay a wrench under the hood, always have a table near by. If you bump that tool, you may never find it again. Besides the tool, also look for how it is packaged so I can see at a glance if everything is back where it should be.

HerkyJim on Wed May 17, 2006 7:13 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: FrankD.
I was going to ask simple questions like how does S-K box wrenches compare to Snap-on box wrenches.


Great question! Friend of mine at work is "into" Alpha Romeos. He bought some kind of gee-whiz exhaust sytem and found that he needed an obstruction wrench to get to one fastener. The 11mm and 12mm Snap-On he bought was on the desk at work yesterday.

If I didn't know, I'd have guessed that this wrench was a Harbor Freight item and the Harbor Freight item (I have a couple of sets of their polished and chromed combination wrenches) were the Snap-Ons.

I was quite surprised. Makes me sad too, because The Indians/Pakistanis/Taiwanese/Chinese are going to run these companies out of business (or take over production employment) too.

My $0.02

NickD on Thu May 18, 2006 3:51 AM User is offline

Purchased a set of Harbor obstruction wrenches, based on the theory that the smaller the bolt head size, the smaller the obstruction. Hardly use them, most of the time, can use a 24" extension on an impact wrench, depends upon how you look at the bolt.

NickD on Sat May 20, 2006 6:40 AM User is offline

Ha, a three hour miserable job to install a flywheel cover with only four M6X1.00 screws holding it on. Did know one hole had a broken thread in it, didn't see the one way up on top where the screw was broken half way off inside the hole and the other two were stripped. This 6 mm screw replaced the old 1/4" X 20, a bit thinner and about six more threads per inch. Thinking back, even with Japanese cars, the number of 6 mm screws that broke off even with just the weight of the wrench on the head. Used mostly to hold tin together, worse ones were in the belly pans that had to be removed just to change the oil filter. Finding automotive quality screws, kind of expensive at buck a piece with anti-sieze solved that problem.

I retapped the holes to a 1/4" X 20 for a clean threaded hole, could have gone to a 5/16" X 18, but another trip to the hardware store as I could only find three in my junk box. It has been almost 30 years since Detroit switched to metric, but the guys at the parts stores still think metric is only on import cars. A entire wall of SAE screws as they call them now, use to be English screws, and maybe one or two drawers of metric.

Was about ready to pitch the new flywheel cover like the last guy pitched the old one, a recently rebuilt starter was installed, but they never cleaned off the old corrosion which was probably the cause of the problem in the first place with the old starter. Crazy, while the positive post of the battery is only inches away from the body connector, the 12 V take off point was miles away at the starter solenoid terminal. Was tempted to change that, but meant tearing apart the entire engine wiring harness. Just powered wire brushed the terminals, grease them, and put them back on, got lazy.

NickD on Tue May 23, 2006 3:40 PM User is offline

What is a J-2222 I asked myself and do I really need one to remove the rear brake drums on the 82 Pace Arrow? Couldn't find anything that even looked like the drums in the 82 shop manual, but were covered in the 80 manual, maybe GM figures no sense in reprinted this same stuff year after year.

Interesting, the as these drums are just like you would find on the front wheels, but the axle tube serves as the spindle for two tapered bearings with an adjusting nut, the drums are firmly held unto the tube, the axle has a flange on it and simply bolts to the drum, the J-2222 tool is for removing the bearing retaining nut. So the only way I could see if I could work around not having this tool was to remove the drive axle. Got out my freshly oiled impact wrench and even at 140 psi, wouldn't bulge these screws, all my weight on the end of an 18" breaker bar was useless, so got the four foot pipe for a five foot length and with my 200 pounds on the end of that with jerking was able to crack all eight bolts loose, that is over a 1000 ft. lbs of torque. Once cracked free all eight bolts came out easily with my fingers. While the manual said you may have to beat out the axle shaft, with the eight bolts removed, it practically fell out, now I could see the retaining nut. Much different in the 82, the nut had half circles cut in all around the outside with similar half circles in the drum. Inserted a piece of 3/8" dowel and was able to turn the adjustment nut. Also had a series of notches on the inside for a keyway with one key slot in the axle tube, this was held in place by a retaining ring that was easily removed with a small screw driver. No J-2222 was needed.

Rear brakes were in excellent condition with no glazing on the drum surface, everything was free, but added a bit of brake grease. Only problem was plenty of play in the shoes to the drum that could have been cured by backing up the motorhome and slamming on the brakes several times, but I manually adjusted them. Glad my son decided to stop over, didn't feel I could ever get that drum on by myself, most weight about 100 pounds and very awkward to bend under the wheel well where the drum is about 18" inside and try to align it, a 1/32" off and it won't go on. I got on my back to guide it while my son took off some the weight on top. I marked the setting of the retaining nut and couldn't get it any tighter, only about 1/4" past the slot so had to back it off to the original position.

If they use brakes this huge on a 27 footer, was wondering what size they would use on a 40 footer?

Think on the other side, will just make sure the adjuster is free, and if it is, will adjust it and leave it, removing these drums are a lot of work for an old man.

Last Sunday looked at the Onan generator for the first time, needed an oil change and recall the previous owner telling me it paid an electrician a full day's pay as his generator wouldn't start unless the RV plug was plugged into the generators receptacle that sounded kind of crazy to me. There is no switch in the receptacle nor any current sensing means to tell the generator the plug is in.

First step was to try to find some information on the BFA, web only gave a bunch of boards saying to go to a Cummins dealer or send 50 bucks to this place to get the manual, most only wanted the wiring diagram. Ha, the wiring diagram is on a decal on the inside of the control box cover, ain't paying 50 bucks for that. The wiring diagram further verified nothing was there to sense that the RV was plugged into it. But it did show that it needed a ground and the ground terminal was empty. The generator was getting an erratic ground through a bolt in the pan that was barely touching the engine, plugging in the RV to the generator receptacle was a pure coincidence. Has a ground now.

The other wiring looked factory, thank God this guy didn't get into here, maybe the 120 VAC scared him away. I learned from the web the oil filter is identical to the one used in my Supra and have spares here, the air filter, heck cleaned that with soap and water, nice and clean and has plenty of air flow. But my eyes looked at the spark plug, only half way in and at a 15* angle, sucker was cross threaded, my God, that guy got into here!!! Any attempts on my part to screw it in straight was fruitless, but I recall buying a K-D threader with the inserts about 30 years ago, had to think for a couple of minutes where I put it. Found it with a fresh package of inserts, so had to remove the head before tapping. Put in new plugs and before where you had to grind the starter for 5-10 seconds, starts the instant the button is depressed. Also found the governor adjustment, but was too tired at the point to haul out test equipment. May not use this very much at 3 bucks a gallon for gas, but it is there and has to work. Also a nice standby unit in case we lose power here. Won't have to fool with my 12 V pump to keep the sump dry plus run hoses all over the basement.

What a neat little engine this Onan has, a horizontally opposed twin cylinder, thought went more toward an ultralight than pumping out voltage. Not sure of the displacement, could have measured the crank throw and the piston diameter, but guessing about a 1.1 liter.

FrankD. on Thu May 25, 2006 2:27 PM User is offline


Know any thing about Tool Source.com?

I am looking at this torque wrench.
http://www.toolsource.com/ost/product.asp?sourceid=googlesk&dept%5Fid=500&pf%5Fid=92784&mscssid=FLT9QL31SJF39H2D8H2H23FECWV94WKC


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FrankD.

k5guy on Thu May 25, 2006 5:12 PM User is offline

LOL report yourself to a moderator, and attend a 12 step program.

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Send me e-mail

NickD on Thu May 25, 2006 7:32 PM User is offline

That is only a 3.3-16.7 ft. lb torque wrench, Frank, have one very similar to it but seldom use it as with something that small, can feel the springiness of the bolt to make sure it is tight. Bolts like this are very easy to either strip the threads or snap off the heads. The largest bolt you would use with this wrench would be a M6 X 1mm or a 1/4" X 28 and in automotive, nothing really critical is used this small, mostly for attaching sheet metal panels or the windshield cleaner bottle.

For a torque wrench to be accurate, especially this small, it is assumed the threads, both male and female are clean like new and well lubricated, something most of us don't fool with when attaching a belly pan. Do use anti-seize though, so I won't break them the next time around.

FrankD. on Thu May 25, 2006 9:07 PM User is offline

Thanks Nick this is what it is for.

General motors 3800 II.

Lower aluminum intake manifold bolts torque to 132 in.lb.

Upper plastic intake manifold bolts torque to 89 in. lb.

A few years of GM factory service manuals had these torque specifications reversed, and snap goes the plastic.



Click to enlarge.


I could borrow an in. lb. torque wrench but that is just something I don’t like to do.


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FrankD.

bohica2xo on Thu May 25, 2006 9:41 PM User is offline

Frank:

I have no experience with Toolsource, so I can't say about them as a vendor.
I DO have plenty of experience with 1/4 drive torque wrenches. I have 4 different 1/4 drive wrenches for various jobs - one involves 8-32 screws.

I don't think I would spend that kind of money on a 1/4 drive, for the range you are looking at. In the 80+ inch pound range you are better off with a 3/8 drive, that you can use for other things.

If you go to McMaster-Carr, and search for 85555A214 you will find a 3/8 drive unit that is rated 30 to 250 inch pounds - for 112 bucks. You also get a calibration certificate that is tracable.


B.

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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

FrankD. on Fri May 26, 2006 2:02 AM User is offline


Thanks bohica2xo I will check it out.



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FrankD.

NickD on Sun May 28, 2006 7:25 AM User is offline

The advantages of plastic are many, interior walls can be molded like a mirror in restrictive free, no other machining is required except for breaking off some flash, extremely inexpensive in production quantities, so why do they charge well over 300 bucks for a replacement? The key disadvantages are warping or meltdown with a one time overheating engine, plus the plastic quickly dries out making it brittle.

Still prefer to go by feel, a dab of epoxy on the bolt head to the manifold will keep the bolt from working loose, just snug them down feeling until the wrench feels firm, you can feel that by turning it even a 1/32nd of a turn more, the plastic will crack. Last choice would be a clicker type torque wrench where you can get a heart attack wondering if reaching that click will snap the mold. Even an analog beam wrench throws confusion as it adds spring to the feel.

This was something that Mitch and I fully agreed on when this discussion came up a couple of years ago. Did torque my dual tire lug nuts to 150 ft. lbs, only concern there was retearing my shoulder ligaments but went left handed as that was spared in my accident.

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