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Can't fix my own car no more

NickD on Tue July 25, 2006 11:26 AM User is offline

Year: 2004
Make: Chevrolet
Model: Cavalier
Engine Size: 2.4L
Refrigerant Type: R-134a
Ambient Temp: cool
Pressure Low: good
Pressure High: good
Country of Origin: United States

Been this way since new, stumbling at low speeds, when I drove my son's Sunfire five speed what a difference in smoothness that made me call the dealer and took it in. They had a bunch of service bulletins on this problem

Still under warranty, they reflashed the RAM and installed an upgraded IAC, what a difference. Well maybe I could install an IAC, doesn't have any ident codes, but reflashing the RAM is way out of my league since GM won't post the upgrades on the web like every other product does. Did watch the tech carry his notebook and Tech II scanner and commented, I gotta get one of those.

Like driving a brand new car again, nice smooth low speeds, ha, if you see a guy driving down the freeway at 2 mph, it's me enjoying the new found smoothness.

Looked at brand new Cadillac in the showroom with a $60K sticker price, EPA highway mileage at 25 sucked, my 92 does better than that. But did comment to the salesman, that car would really have fit nice in the trunk of my old 73 Fleetwood and would have served nice as a life boat kind of thing.

CorvairGeek on Tue July 25, 2006 11:21 PM User is offline

And not a DeVille, LeSabre, or Park Avenue model to be found. We already know what a good outcome renaming the Oldsmobile line had. I really have to believe there is a lot of crack smoking going on at many levels in US industry and govenment.

Jerry

-------------------------
Jerry

NickD on Wed July 26, 2006 10:44 AM User is offline

The Cadillac STS and CTS isn't too bad, judging by the difference in price the S must stand for superexpensive and the C must stand for cheap, about $24K difference for the two cars that look basically the same from the outside. I am afraid to even attempt to pronounce that new Buick name, may cause permanent damage to my tongue.

Looked at that Cobalt supercharged sports couple, a bit difficult to understand the sales brochure, but does a stock version of this car actually to the quarter mile in 200 mph and in 7.7 seconds? Or is that some modified version? Ha, the options on this car, you can't have cruise unless you take ABS with it and can't have remote entry unless you take power windows with that.

My opinions on ABS may be controversial, but feel if a driver needs to depend on them, they shouldn't be on the road, and ABS causes more expensive problems than what they are worth. My window crank has never failed me, but PW sure has, nothing like dropping a window for a toll booth and it won't go up again during a thunderstorm 300 miles always from home.

That seam between the door and roof line is getting higher and higher, haven't these designers ever heard of an ice rain? Or even a normal rain? Open the door in a rain storm and ten gallons of water flow on the front seat where you are suppose to sit.

Travis on Sat July 29, 2006 4:49 PM User is offlineView users profile

American cars, as a whole, are 'junk'.

-------------------------
1993.5 Single Turbo Toyota Supra 714RWHP
1985 Suburban
1997 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP

NickD on Sat July 29, 2006 6:07 PM User is offline

My 1992 DeVille has been an exception, except for a dirty contact in the idle control, has been trouble free for me the last seven years. Received $9,300.00 in rebates, credits, and my GM card on the Cavalier so getting a brand new car with new tires and even a new fan belt for $7,000 seemed to be a fair deal.

But am curious what Honda and Toyota are doing new with their electronic systems today, are they still as user friendly as the pre OBD II days? You have a Supra, so do I, an 88 turbo, and by pushing the right button while switching on the ignition, can read any code on the monitor. DeVille shows anything by playing with the climate control buttons, can do a lot of monitoring while driving. The Cavalier has a check engine lamp on it that says, take it to the dealer.

GM is not offering any more hot deals like this, and am wondering about Honda and Toyota, can a guy with a bit of electronic experience change a module without having to take those cars to a dealer with a credit card in hand?

bohica2xo on Sat July 29, 2006 6:36 PM User is offline

Nick:

The newer jap cans are WORSE than the domestic stuff for that.

Ask anybody with a 2003 Nissan 350Z. The car has a LAN for the computers, changing any component requires CAN access to update the address of the new component. Things like the the air mix door motor and mode door motor (and several others) have LCU's built in. Functions like address, motor opening angle signals, comparison, PBR function, (and more) are run through the LAN which depends on the ground circuits for the motor(S).

Fix this yourself with a few codes? Unlikely. Bend over, hold your cheeks apart, and back through the door of the dealership - and beg them to be gentle.

I hear that on some of the newer stuff, you can't even replace a power window or seat motor without CAN access. I looked at the A/C section for that 350Z for a friend, and told him to roll his windows down - or pay the dealer the 2800 bucks they want to fix it. Except, the windows are inoperative too!


B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Mon July 31, 2006 10:40 AM User is offline

We added Nissan to our don't buy list, mainly because the three Nissan dealers in a 70 mile radius from us went bankrupt a few years back. But was more curious about Civics and Collora's.

Ha, did listen to the greatness of the Prius on that PBS talk show I shouldn't be listening to, Tim says I complain too much. The people that like them that called in said the ones that aren't happy with them don't know how to drive them to get the economy. You are suppose to take your foot off the gas pedal five miles before you get to a traffic light and use a very slow takeoff speed. People with poor mileage are said to fly up to a stop sign and slam on the brakes so the battery can't recharge.

No kidding, wouldn't that slower driver also help with conventional engine driven systems as well? And what about the cost of that battery? If that goes bad with a carefully driven 10 mpg increase in fuel, would have to drive that car at least ten thousand miles to get a payback and hope the battery doesn't go bad again. Ha, not much space, economy nor power than a Geo Metro, but there, don't have a battery to worry about.

bohica2xo on Mon July 31, 2006 12:06 PM User is offline

Nick:

The Civic is a bit more user friendly. The body computer (honda has a different acronym) can be tested with a jumper wire (you have to pull a dash panel to get to that point) and it flashes the dome light, like the old OBDI systems flashed the MIL. The A/C control will run a self-test with button manipulations. The drivetrain however requires a scantool, and does communicate with other computers (CAN)

I don't know about the Corolla, but the Camry has CAN, and requires a scan tool. The body computer can be tested with a jumper, and flashes the "door open" lamp on the instrument cluster. That was a 2004, things may have progressed.


The diagnosis on the 350Z windows turns out to be bad shaft encoders in the window motors. What a waste of technology. I know how much you like SpringLocks, so I will share this... The 350Z A/C system is full of springlocks - but the japs have re-named them "One Touch Connectors" LMAO


.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

powerflite on Mon July 31, 2006 12:28 PM User is offline

If no one has noticed, Toyota has had a truckload of recalls the last few of years. Some of them were pretty serious, and probably would have bankrupted a lesser company. I don't see much press on these recalls though, I am not sure why.

NickD on Mon July 31, 2006 12:53 PM User is offline

Should have second thoughts on taking my son's 93 Bravada, offered it to me for free, least I can repair it. He was hit by an illegal doing about $2,000.00 worth of damage to the front. No insurance and when he called the police, they refused to even write up an accident report on it. He filed a complaint with the DMV and they have done nothing, according to their rules, no one is required to carry insurance, unless they have an accident and must be able to post a $20,000.00 bond or will have their license taken away. After fooling around with the DMV for a year, turned it over to a collection agency, the illegal is now claiming it was my son's fault and that his gray Jeep Cherokee hit him. My son will never get a dime from this, but if it was yours or my fault, watch out.

Yes my son did question why the DMV issued a valid WI drivers license to an illegal, probably the wrong question to ask, this guy is still driving and still doesn't have insurance. And of course, any attorney won't handle it, not enough money there to get there interest. Ha, and the state legislators want to use the DL for voter identification.

It's sitting in my backyard now, could repair all the plastic and make it look nice again and won't have to take it to the dealer to get it scanned.

JJM on Mon July 31, 2006 2:27 PM User is offline

Nick, I certainly feel your pain... just got the Caddy back from the dealer after 4 days and STILL things are screwed up. I brought it in for navigation system constantly losing the GPS signal and getting lost (repeat) , the memory seats losing some settings (sort of repeat) after switching drivers or activating the massge function, the night illumination on some of the steering wheel buttons were out, and high speed vibration (repeat). The dealer admits others are having similar problems with the navigation system, they don't have a fix for it, and there is probably little they can do for that. Meanwhile, you can go into Radio Shack and buy a navigation system for a fraction of what this thing costs and it works flawlessly.

So what was the result? The navigation still shows the car in a river, the Atlantic, or through a park or golf course, the lumbar settings still have Alzheimers, and the high speed vibration is much worse now. The only thing they did is fix the steering wheel illumination. And there is not a damn thing I can do about any of it. There doesn't appear to be a fix (probably new firmware) for the navigation system. Even if I do replace the bad sensor or wiring for the memory seat (DTC B1850), I still need a Tech II to recalibrate the sensor limit values. And the high speed vibration, without having my hands on the Hunter GSP 9700, all I can do is radomly replace tires and rims. Rims are $700 each.

Ha, if I do a daily scan of the various modules interconnected via the "Class II" data network, almost always there will be some sort of new code in there. I don't think I've ever gotten a clean scan -- even directly from the dealer.

When you look at the two, three and four day rentals, plus warranty labor and parts, it's easy to see why GM is having serious problems. But the DTS still drives pretty nice, after driving that loaner Buick Lucerne which couldn't get out if its own way (don't even think of passing on a two-lane road) it was real nice to step back into the Caddy. Even though the Lucerne I believe is built on the same chasis as the DTS (and a lot of the interior components are the same), it does not drive anything like the DTS. I guess I shouldn't complain, but a $60K vehicle should be just a little bit more reliable. Now I can see why Lexus is selling so many cars.

We can only hope that one day, inexpensive PC based solutions will be available for our vehicles, but I think it will only get worse. And like you said, why the heck don't they have such updates available on the web like every other electronics manufacturer?

Joe

bohica2xo on Mon July 31, 2006 2:45 PM User is offline

JJ:

It is not likely to change anytime soon. People keep buying the stuff, no matter how badly they get treated.


If Allen-Bradley tried to sell me 25K worth of PLC's that required a 3k scanner and software available only from them - the salesman would clear the doorway about 4 feet AGL, and the first bounce would be in the parking lot someplace. Oh, wait A-B DID try that once, and nearly lost their market share overnight.

60k for that caddy, they should give you the scan tool if it is not built in. If I give Hardinge 60k for a new lathe, the diagnostic routines are available on the screen any time I want them. I had a problem with a new Bridgeport VMC a few years back - a 40k machine at the time. A call to Bridgeport, and they flew a technician out to deal with it, in my plant at no charge. New CPU, new drive, next day air on a 55 pound part, installed the next morning as soon as the UPS truck left. "Thank you SIR, sorry you had a problem" The technician was ready to pick up the lunch tab too.

.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Mon July 31, 2006 9:40 PM User is offline

I got a used Dell Axim 5 with the GPS software for a couple of hundred bucks and visit the site frequently for upgrades. Not the easiest screen in the world, but the girl locked on the inside of this thing, have to take it apart one of these days and see what she looks like, is constantly giving verbal directions.

Both my wife and I drive the Cavalier and I am a foot taller than she. She is kind and lifts that single lever sliding the seat back when she leaves the car. With her seat being so much closer and the rising angle, both of us have no problems with the side view mirrors, they stay fixed, but I have to raise my hand to readjust the rear view mirror. So lift one lever, slide, and adjust the rear view mirror and done.

Regarding the massage, well she enjoys a backrub that helps her to relax and fall asleep. Ha, did have problems with rough hands working on the MH in winter, she got me industrial gloves and hand creams.

Ha, wonder if that new 2.0L 205 HP Cobalt SC engine will fit inside my car, saw the Cobalt it comes in and looks more like a pregnant guppy than a sports car, wow doing 200+ mph at 7.7 seconds in the quarter. Think of the fun I would have staying out of the way from SUV's!

If the heart attack lamp comes on after the warranty expires, may just get a heart attack. Ha, that would make for an interesting product liability suit.

I did add remote entry to the car at the request of my wife and have to admit, I like it too especially when carrying a couple of bags of groceries. Found an aftermarket unit for 35 bucks including the receiver, two transmitters, and two actuators. Kicked around paying another 20 bucks for interior lock switches, but couldn't think of any logical reason to install them. Do have an electric trunk release with an on dash push button switch driven by the BCM that simply pulses the switch, can hold it down all day, but only get one pulse so the trunk motor doesn't burn out.

The wiring showed using the door switches in conjunction with the neutral safety switch so when in gear the doors lock, my DeVille has that and hate it, dropping off a person, the doors are locked, either have to put the car in neutral or manually hit the unlock switch. Also the wiring showed taping into the BDM with four diodes, no way was I going to do that and void the warranty by playing with the BCM harness, and that was a stack of wires to play with. On a bench test, holding either the lock or unlock switches resulted in just a pulse from the receivers relays, so no need to play with the BCM.

I mounted the receiver under the center console and used the aux cigar lighter for power, unit only draws a standby current of 1.6 ma, so leave it hot, and added my own switch for programming rather than running another wire to the ignition switch, some crazy sequence of flashing the ignition switch three times to get into programming mode. So the only connections to the vehicle are ground and 12 volts and two wires to parallel the trunk switch. The manual door locks and key still works like original. If it breaks, no ident codes to fool with.

NickD on Tue August 01, 2006 2:59 PM User is offline

Joe, can't they put your Caddy on a suspension lift rack, start the engine, put it into gear, and run it up to the vibration speed? That's what I do at home with my Douglas fir blocks where the height to width ratio is no more than 1.2:1, don't want any of those tower like jack stands tipping over when I am under there.

Can't use a frame or body lift with the wheels dangling down, has to simulate road level conditions.

Don't like doing on 4WD vehicles as all four wheels have to be off the ground, much easier on 2WD vehicles as the free running wheels are on the ground and blocked securely. But make dang sure the vehicle is supported properly before crawling under, but still tend to update my will and say a good act of contrition before going under. Also need a person you can trust bringing the engine very slowly up to speed, keeping their foot on the brake before putting it into gear and slowly releasing it, then very slowly stepping on the gas to the vibration speed you already know when driving it on the highway. But typically, will notice that vibration at much lower speed when blocked up. Also slowly releasing the gas back to idle and slowly pressing on the brake till the wheels stop, don't want an idiot behind the wheel that can jerk the vehicle off the blocks or even break the drivetrain.

I used ungloved hands for feeling the vibration on flat level spots, don't want to do anything stupid and stick your fingers where they can be chopped off and very light pressure, a rusty shaft can heat up your fingers fast. The magnitude of the vibration can be felt to increase as you get closer to the source. On shafts also good to find where a balance weight may have fallen off, on a new vehicle, maybe wasn't never balanced properly in the first place, if the vibration is there, time to replace shafts.

Wheels can also be removed, lug nuts should all be put back on to keep the rotors or drums from flying around for isolation reasons, I have found CV joints with vibration problems even though they haven't exhibited any noticeable side play. Also check the tires for side and vehicle wobble and the rims, sometimes some idiot used a 600 Ft lb impact wrench on one of the studs deforming the wheel, others the bands in the tires are broken. But you can find these problems if you look for them, a reason for the vibration.

On the free wheeling wheels, a dial indicator works for the rims, but normally leave this up to a good tire guy that is not easy to find, the only good guy in my town is now working for Wal-Mart so that is where I go, only cost about ten bucks per wheel to have the tire removed, inspected, and inspect the rim as well. Some of these idiots say there isn't a problem if you can see tire wobble over an inch when in the dynamic balancer.

If your Caddy was like this when new, something wasn't balanced at the factory and something like a half shaft, rim or whatever is going to have to be replaced. Have to sweet talk your service manager and explain the problem to him the best you can using non-technical terms, sure you can sweet talk, LOL.

Go in there teed off, paid a fortuned for this pile of crap, etc., you don't quite get the service or try and impress them that you know more than they do.

When I took my Cavalier in, told them I drove my don't Sunfire, and what a difference in low speed performance, and it just seems like when I ease my foot off the gas, the engine is killing. They did a complete TBS search and complied with everything they found. And we smiled at each other when the job was done.

Ha, did check every nut and bolt when I got the car home though.

JJM on Tue August 01, 2006 8:06 PM User is offline

Bohica,

Like virtually all Caddy's, the '05 DTS does have self-diagnostic capability. What's amazing is it'll scan ALL the nearly two dozen modules over the Class II data network for codes... engine, transmission, body, accessories, network... goes through them all alphabetically. It it'll even display the ID's of all the modules. You can clear all the codes, or just ones on a specific module. Funny thing is, there is absolutely no information about this capability I could find in the giant shop manuals. They simply say connect Tech 2...

Unfortunately, you still need to Tech 2 to "calibrate" a lot of these electronics. For example, when they replaced the driver outside mirror glass, the memory recall was all screwed up. I had to bring it back for the them to recalibrate it with the Tech 2. Took them a few hours. Have to record the up limit, down limit, left limit and right limit. Once those parameters are are programmed, the mirrors then functioned normally. Had to go through the same thing when they replaced the entire right outside mirror (in fact, they had so many problems reprogramming they simply replaced the module). This is why I think they kind of blew me off so to speak with the memory seat problem... imagine reprogramming all the seat parameters... in a hot shop.

When I first got the car, I noticed the heat left a lot to be desired -- good thing it has heated seats and wheel -- so I brought it in for that, among other things. I thought they were blowing smoke up my a_s when they told me the reprogrammed the HVAC controller, but sure enough the heat worked good after that. The dealer explained most of these cars go to Florida, where heat obviously isn't an issue.

Nick,

Actually, the vibration seems to be coming more from the rear. I really didn't notice any vibration when the car was new, but then again, I only had it for less then a month when I put the snows on -- and those definitely had, and still have, vibration. In fact, the dealership gave me readings from the Hunter GSP 9700, and told me to expect vibration from XX to XX MPH (forget the speeds), and they were dead right. Couldn't wait to take them off. But then again, I always had vibration problems with Dunlops, but those were the only ones I could get in my size late in season.

I'm pretty sure it's one or more tires. Problem is, while the GSP 9700 will almost always find the problem, for warranty purposes, there a certain "margin" that's considered "acceptable." Like when I bent a rim the first winter, the GSP 9700 picked it up, but it was in the "acceptable" margin. $750 later (no center cap or TPM sensor for that money either) and the Caddy was as smooth as silk. Could barely realize tell if I was doing 65 or 90. When I drove down to Florida, it certainly didn't seem like 130 until the message "Top Speed Fuel Cut Off" flashed on the DIC and the engine felt like it was bogging.

Maybe I'm wrong, but in general I think mounting and dismounting tires (like when putting on snow tires) repeatedly damages them, no matter if proper procedures are followed to a T. It seems after a few seasons of swapping, the tires just don't feel "right" anymore. I bet the tires are "damaged" somehow. For some reason, new rubber always seems to "feel" better.

I certainly don't try to impress the dealer... I go in like I don't know anything, and shake the advisors hand with a $20 because I don't make appointments, and they quickly send me on my way with a rental. I didn't mention anything about the current DTC B1850 on the memory seats, which points to the horizontal lumbar sensor -- and they note "all is working to spec" -- LOL. All in all, they're very good to me, but if they can't get support from the factory on some of these technical bugs, I can't get mad at them about it.

Joe

mhamilton on Tue August 01, 2006 8:20 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: NickD
my DeVille has that and hate it, dropping off a person, the doors are locked, either have to put the car in neutral or manually hit the unlock switch.

Does your Deville have the info center? The '97 Eldo has a way to turn off the auto door locks thorugh the info computer. It's explained in the "convience guide" with the radio and ac controls. Maybe they added that after customer complaints.

NickD on Tue August 01, 2006 9:19 PM User is offline

The door lock circuits in my 92 DeVille are completely independent of the BCM and tied in with the neutral safety switch, I could cut a wire. Ha, I don't mind key circuits like all that power stuff being independent of the BCM with all those ident codes they have added, I can fix this stuff.

The climate control is very much a part of the BCM, that is nice as I can override all the auto functions if I don't hit a tree playing with the buttons. Can also monitor such things as digital speed, engine speed, and when the O2 sensor activates and how many times it is switching per second and even switch on both condenser fans while watching the high side pressure.

As far as I am concerned, Caddy went backwards with the later models making repairs impossible without their esoteric software. But thanks for the tip.

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