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Just had to share this Pages: 12

bohica2xo on Fri July 28, 2006 7:57 PM User is offline

Year: 1998
Make: Hankinson
Model: 500 scfm
Engine Size: 2ton
Refrigerant Type: R22+134a
Ambient Temp: 115
Pressure Low: 185 psi
Pressure High: 185 psi
Country of Origin: United States

After reading JJ's "recovery" thread, I thought I would share this one with everyone.


I got a call from an experienced facilities mgr. I know. He asked me to come recover a chiller that was to be scrapped. The unit turned out to be a compressed air dryer in the 500 scfm range. Less than 10 years old, in good shape. Air cooled unit.

I asked why it was scrap. Will tells me it was "never right after it was moved", and that they had elected to replace it. Apparently it had significant downtime, which causes lots of trouble downstream. I asked who was maintaining it, and he said most of the work was done by someone that had recently quit.

A quick inspection turned up two things.

First, an obvious screwup that had caused a leak. Apparently, when it was relocated it was necessary to mount a disconnect switch to the outside of the cabinet - with self drilling screws. Two inch long self drilling screws. Yup, right into a suction line. The other 3 screws still stick into the box, and the suction line has a sloppy soft solder repair.

Second, there are cheap (aluminum) AUTOMOTIVE 134a couplers on the service fittings. Hmmm. A quick look at the nameplate says it should have "11 lbs R22" for a charge. On the high side line, there is a death kit conversion sticker.

I call Will over, and ask him if we can go look in the maintence shop for refrigerants. He recalls that he was told the unit used banned refrigerant that his maintence man did not have a certificate for, so it was "converted". A look around the maintence shop shows 12 ounce cans of 134a. Not even a 30 pounder anywhere. No recovery equipment or cylinders. No vacuum pump either.

Now, Will is a fair facilities manager, keeping the production equipment going. Not the sort of guy to say "no" if you wanted a recovery machine. He replaced this "bad" piece of equipment with a new unit from Ingersoll-Rand for several thousand dollars. They have a lot of pneumatic equipment, and the cleaner air will save him thousands. Obviously his "HVAC / Hydraulic guy" was in way over his head.


The punchline is what I recovered from the unit. Almost 15 pounds of 134a. I guess the overcharge brought the high side up to R22 specs. I did not drain the compressor, but I bet the death kit oil went into the unit too. My recovery tank a day later had pressures indicating a substantial amount of air as well.


I wish I had a camera with me that day, the "repair" and the retrofit fittings were classic.


-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

TRB on Fri July 28, 2006 9:02 PM User is offlineView users profile

Our you sure it was pure R-134a that was in that system. Sounds like the guy could have installed anything he could get his hands on.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

bohica2xo on Fri July 28, 2006 9:22 PM User is offline

Tim:

I recovered that mess into a clean recovery cylinder, and when I saw the high static pressure the next day I returned the cylinder to Will, and billed him for the cylinder. They have a hazmat contract, so the refrigerant was disposed of legally.

I am fairly certain it was 134a + air, since the repair could not have been made with any refrigerant in the system. The "tech" did not appear to have a license, hence the 134a in an R22 unit.

Just a great demonstration of how things get messed up. Luckily, he never worked on any of the HVAC units on the roof...


.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

Chick on Sat July 29, 2006 5:57 AM User is offlineView users profile

Soo, what did he do wrong?? Sounds like half the "mechanics" in my area. Buy cans by the case and just keep throwing them in..So maybe an autofrost can gtes thrown in once in a while, after all it's a drop in replacement for R12 and every otherr refrigerant. To bad they couldn't use an extra machine Bohica, sounds like a little line welding, proper evacuation and recharge with R22 and the machine would not need to be scrapped..But I would find out where the guy is working now..Wouldn't want to hire him to fix your customers cars...

-------------------------
Chick
Email: Chick

---------------------------------------------

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

NickD on Sat July 29, 2006 7:25 AM User is offline

Seems like in Joe's post, we are saying not every tech or shop is bad, where here there are a lot of bad techs out there.

Which way is it?

Can name five shops in my area that are bad due to personal experience, and can add that none of those guys are here helping other people giving free advice.

They are either too busy ripping people off or some are just downright incompetent. The latter should be here trying to get help, but they feel they know everything anyway.

mascas on Sat July 29, 2006 8:19 AM User is offline

One word..........WOW. Ive seen some hodge podge stuff but....wow
There are people out there that jsut refuse to ask for help and have no pride in their title.....damn

Fasthauler on Sat July 29, 2006 12:51 PM User is offline

You are going to find 20% of the people in any industry that are flakes. The bad part is that the reflect on everybody. This guy is obviously not in the industry. He was faking it to try and keep a job and not doing a very good job at it.

JJM on Sat July 29, 2006 12:56 PM User is offline

Sorry, but that sh_t is just plain inexcusible. None of us are born knowing how to do things, and the best way to learn is by doing -- as many of us have done -- but come on... didn't this guy take any initiative to at least gather some basic knowledge, read books, ask questions, before attempting something like this? I mean really, I didn't know squat about generators a few years ago (as my questions here surely showed), but I asked questions of people I know and respect like Bohica and Nick, bought books and manuals, looked at how correctly installed systems were done, and when I was sure I had enough knowledge, I then took on the project:









And sure I made mistakes.... wasted material because I wasn't the best at bending pipe and wanted my bends to be nice, damaged wire while pulling requiring new pulls, had to recut and rethreading gas lines to get everything plumb and straight (then pressure tested at 10 PSI, double the code requirement) when I probably could've just used nipples... but at least I tried to do the job as neat and workmanlike as possible, and exceeded all the applicable codes. The system works great.

Of all the "alternative" refrigerants this guy could've used, he picks R-134a -- miles off the P/T scale from R-22 -- but of course, when you're only source is AutoZone or Wal-Mart, well I guess that's all you're gonna get. If only this guy went to an HVAC supply and explained he needs R-22 and lost his 608 cert card, they probably would suggested R-407C or R-417A which is pretty close on the P/T scale to R-22. But then again, even if he recharged with R-407C or R-417A, he wouldn't of pulled a vacuum, replaced the filter, so I guess it all would've been for naught anyway.

How was the disco wired? If it was three-phase, any attempt to make sure the phase rotation was correct on both ends? Any bonding wire of the appropriate size through the flex, and bonding bushings at both ends?

And TWO inch screws? What, he didn't have any 1/4" or 1/2" in his little box? I'm surprised he didn't use drywall screws.

Of course, we all know the 11 lbs of R-22 in the original installation went sssssssssssssss taking out some more of Chicks penguins.

Well Bohica, it looks like you saved them a lot of money. I hope they APPRECIATE it. You can never underestimate the value of good people.

Joe

TRB on Sat July 29, 2006 1:41 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: JJM
Sorry, but that sh_t is just plain inexcusible. None of us are born knowing how to do things

Joe you are incorrect on this one. We all were born knowing how to mess up our undies! But like everything else in this world we let someone else clean that up for us at first! I have gone through so many so called mechanics over the past few years it's not even funny. All of them what $ 30.00 dollars or more an hour to swap parts. I honestly cannot remember one of these mechanics that could change a shaft seal.

There was a article in last month's ACtion which is a magazine MACS puts out. This article covered compressor failures and the mechanic's which installed them. Many did not know which oil to use, whatever was on the shelf was a common theme. Oil quantity was hit or miss and what is debris! Point was needing to swap out 3 or 4 compressors is not the fault of the compressor manufacture but the fault of the mechanic not doing the job correctly. But tell that to the mechainc and it's shitty parts not his skill.

Funny I was watching Unique Whips the other night and they had a big bass speaker setup on the floor. One installer looks at the other and say let's plug it into the wall socket. They look at each other and say what the heck its under warranty! Sure enough these speakers get plugged directly into a wall outlet.



-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

bohica2xo on Sat July 29, 2006 2:04 PM User is offline

Yeah, it only takes one guy to make everyone look bad. This clown claimed to be HVAC qualified, but obviously was not.

The worst part is that large companies will not tell a future employer the truth - all they will do anymore is verify employment. Companies are so fearful of legal action that they are paralyzed. You used to be able to speak with someone's previous supervisor, and find out what sort of worker they were. This bozo will spend another 20 years drifting from job to job making a mess.

Chick:

I did tell will to sell the thing to a used machinery dealer for pocket cash, rather than drop it in the dumpster. At least that will cover the cost of the refrigerant disposal. I was not 100% sure it was only 134a +air, it might have had HC's in it, so I marked it as "UNK"


Joe:

I am still amazed at the quality of that genset install. I just whis I had the time to see it in person last time I was in NY. Pride in workmanship can be hard to find anymore.

Like I said, no recovery machine, not even a vaccuum pump in the shop. Hard to say which idiot put the screw into the line, there may have been a "second shooter" in this kill. Looking at some other electrical, I saw some longer than necessary fasteners in other places too. The disconnect was not connected when I got there, so I did not run anything. For all I know, the fans may have been running backwards.
Bonding? LMAO 3 wires, the conduit is the ground. That is all I expect around here, unless I wire it myself. The electrical people look at me like I am silly for using a full size bare copper ground wire in steel conduits.

Will had 2 bids, one from Kaeser for a new compressor & dryer, and one from I-R. Ingersoll offered a maintence / repair warranty on an existing I-R compressor, extending it's life 10,000 hours along with a new dryer - for a fraction of the Kaeser price. I-R got the nod, and pulled the Hankinson unit as part of the deal. When I got there, it was sitting on the dock, as far from the new equipment as they could drag it...

I have known Will for years, we share a beer occasionally. He called me because all of the HVAC service techs in town are too busy to talk about a job like this. More of a favor than a job really. Will was convinced that the company risked some sort of huge fine if he dumped a charged unit in the trash. Trying to do the "right thing". Maintence in his plant is spread around - mitsubishi sends a team of people in white coveralls once a month to service the robots. Matsura sends a different set of white coveralls to service the Matsura equipment. Most of his in-house staff takes care of greasing conveyor bearings and things like that. Emergencies like blown hydraulic lines were handled by the now absent A/C tech.


.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

TRB on Sat July 29, 2006 2:12 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
The worst part is that large companies will not tell a future employer the truth - all they will do anymore is verify employment. Companies are so fearful of legal action that they are paralyzed. You used to be able to speak with someone's previous supervisor, and find out what sort of worker they were. This bozo will spend another 20 years drifting from job to job making a mess.

Yep, all I really can do anymore is state I would or would not hire a certain person again.



-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

bohica2xo on Sat July 29, 2006 3:16 PM User is offline

Tim:

It cuts both ways too. Big companies will not give a letter of recomendation anymore either. If you have a GOOD employee, you should be able to say something good about them.

Back in the late 70's, we played a different game in the aerospace world. Sloppy workers got rave revues when your competitor called on a reference. Easier than firing them, and your competitor got a fresh handicap. I never liked that plan, it looked like a bigger problem down the road. I always gave a frank review in writing, listing the strengths & weakneses of the employee. He could show it to his future employer - or not. I promised to say the same thing if they called me. Many of them still gave me as a reference. I was always in trouble for "theraputic terminations", my boss wanted me to make them uncomfortable and let them, quit. I felt the damage saved was worth the cost of unemployment...

Sorry to hear that you can't find qualified people down there. They are not hiding out in Vegas either.


.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

TRB on Sat July 29, 2006 3:24 PM User is offlineView users profile

The people I do have are very commited and our assests for our company. Its just tough trying to fill those last few spots so the others don't have to go crazy trying to do it all. It just takes time as I have found two greta employess the in the past two years so there is hope. Just takes a dozen or so to find the right ones. Heck maybe its my fault for the type of add I place when offering a job.

----------------
Arizona Mobile Air Inc. is seeking a hard working, honest and dependable automotive mechanic with a/c being the primary focus. We are a family owned shop serving the general Phoenix area since 1970. This is a full time position with working hours of M-F 8 to 5. During summer months employee may be needed for a few extra hours a week to help get all the work out. Overtime is paid for these extra hours! Candidate must have general automotive tools and some a/c related tools to perform common diagnostics procedures! Welding experience is a plus, as some fabrication is needed on certain projects. Applicants are required to apply for position in person. Medical benefits are supplied to employee after grace period.

Arizona Mobile Air Inc. provides a drug free work place for its employee’s.

Minimum Requirements:
Minimum 2 years experience in the automotive repair field. Will consider training proper candidates with proper attitude!
Must have general automotive tools.
Must be able to effectively read, write and speak English.
Must have current Arizona Driver’s License. MVR report will be checked!
------------------

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

NickD on Sat July 29, 2006 6:25 PM User is offline

You could try this:

El Arizona Mobile Air Inc busca un funcionamiento difícil, mecánico automotor honesto y serio con a/c ser el foco primario. Somos la tienda poseída de una familia que sirve el área de Fénix general desde 1970. Este es una posición a tiempo completo con horas de trabajo de M-F 8 a 5. Durante meses de verano el empleado puede ser necesario durante unas horas suplementarias por semana para ayudar a sacar todo el trabajo. ¡Las horas extras son pagadas para estas horas suplementarias! ¡El candidato debe tener instrumentos automotores generales y algún a/c relacionó instrumentos para realizar procedimientos de diagnóstico comunes! La soldadura de la experiencia es un más, cuando un poco de fabricación es necesaria en ciertos proyectos. Se requiere que candidatos soliciten la posición en la persona. Los beneficios médicos son suministrados al empleado después del período de gracia.

And get rid of this:

"Must be able to effectively read, write and speak English."

RONTFLMAO

Would you consider hiring a guy that could even correct your spelling and grammar? Know one that is available for just sitting in the car with the AC on, working of course, that is very good at holding the charging engine speed with his foot.

Another 92*F day up here, heck that AT can wait for a cooler day, would melt going out there. But what about working under the hood of a vehicle in 130*F weather? It's even hotter under the hood.



TRB on Sat July 29, 2006 7:32 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: NickD
Would you consider hiring a guy that could even correct your spelling and grammar?

If you are inquiring I would have to say no. Could not handle the constant complaining!



-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

MrBillPro on Sat July 29, 2006 9:27 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: TRB
Quote
Originally posted by: NickD
Would you consider hiring a guy that could even correct your spelling and grammar?



If you are inquiring I would have to say no. Could not handle the constant complaining!




Will consider training proper candidates with proper attitude!

-------------------------
Don't take life seriously... Its not permanent.

bohica2xo on Sun July 30, 2006 12:38 PM User is offline

Tim, I asked my wife how she felt about moving to Phoenix, and the answer was "no."

She said she might consider the right house in Payson, but that would be a heck of a commute...


Oh well.

.



-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

TRB on Sun July 30, 2006 3:02 PM User is offlineView users profile

LOL, Payson is a 2.5 hour drive to Phoenix. I love Phoenix overall but we have our issues just like any other major city. One of these days you should come down and see us. Hey the MACS convention is here this next year. A buddy and his wife have made the move to Vegas so one of these days I planing on bringing the MT bike up your way.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

bohica2xo on Sun July 30, 2006 3:12 PM User is offline

Tim:

My wife flies into PHX about twice a month on business, I keep threatening to tag along and snatch her rental car...

I really should come see you guys. Maybe MACS.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

TRB on Sun July 30, 2006 3:17 PM User is offlineView users profile

You are welcome anytime! Been trying to get Chick to come out this way but I think he can only go so far from his monitor!

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

bohica2xo on Sun July 30, 2006 3:30 PM User is offline

Geez Tim, you must be the only guy that does not know the CHICK story...

Computer Hybrid Internet Consultant (CHIC) is an AI program that MIT has been running for years. They added the "K" for pronunciation errors from students. That is why "CHICK" can "type" an answer while you are still reading the question, and why the answers are so accurate.

Apparently several years ago someone loaded a bunch of A/C data for a project. Now, the AI surfs the 'net looking for work since the university can't possible keep it busy.

.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Mon July 31, 2006 12:30 AM User is offline

Always something going on in Vegas tearing down casinos before they are finished to build new ones. When work was slow here several years back, many of the tradesman went to Vegas to find work, they found work. Surprised to hear that place you recovered the refrigerant from was in the manufacturing business, what, no slot machines in there?

Some Indians here want to put up a casino larger than your largest, the MGM near Milwaukee. We passed one today on the way to Lake Wazee, huge, the parking lot is at least three long city blocks long by two blocks deep and was full. This is in the middle of nowhere. But many Indian reservations up here, and they are popping up all over the place. Another one three times this size near the Dells 90 miles away, but you pass two others getting there. Nice place to stop and get lunch for 99 cents, LOL. Have no idea what all that other stuff is for.

Just sounds like Vegas is getting some competition or maybe just a little, Vegas is still king.

Chick on Mon July 31, 2006 7:04 AM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
Geez Tim, you must be the only guy that does not know the CHICK story...



Computer Hybrid Internet Consultant (CHIC) is an AI program that MIT has been running for years. They added the "K" for pronunciation errors from students. That is why "CHICK" can "type" an answer while you are still reading the question, and why the answers are so accurate.



Apparently several years ago someone loaded a bunch of A/C data for a project. Now, the AI surfs the 'net looking for work since the university can't possible keep it busy.



.

Error code 39674....This does not compute......Error code 3867 ...This also does not compute....Mother board burning....caution!!!! mother board burning.....that is all...that is all....

-------------------------
Chick
Email: Chick

---------------------------------------------

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

Edited: Mon July 31, 2006 at 7:06 AM by Chick

bohica2xo on Mon July 31, 2006 2:57 PM User is offline

Oh crap, somebody better reboot CHICK.


Nick:

Actually, there is quite a bit of manufacturing here in the valley. With a population around 2 million, they don't all work on the strip.

All of that mechanical junk wrapped around a cheap PC you are talking about in those "other casinos" (the gaming machines) - is made here. One of the big companies has about 125,000 square feet devoted to slot machine production. The biggest roulette wheel mfg. in north america is here in vegas. We make money every time someone opens a casino.

There is a large vitamin manufacturer here, their dock will take 30 class 8 trucks at one time. One of the big reproduction autoparts companies just relocated here from california, and doubled their size. We have Bigelow Aerospace here, they just launched a private spacecraft a couple of weeks ago. The list is larger than you might think, from gypsum wallboard production to aerospace. No state income tax, no inventory tax, reasonable environmental regulations...


.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Tue August 01, 2006 9:34 AM User is offline

Always somebody around that is spoiling the fun, we have this woman assemblyman here, figure out that name, that claims the casinos are costing the state more in social aid, crime, and in bad debts to other corporations and companies than what little revenue these casinos are paying back to the state.

Don't know if she is right or not, no one else is complaining about these casinos, but if she is correct, seems like the locals should be barred from going and only people from out of state should be permitted to gamble and preferably, people from out of the country.

It's amazing to me how these places can change an impoverished area to one of nice subdivisions, modern schools, and even provide health insurance for their workers. And apparently they have a product that people are very willing to pay top dollar for, an opportunity to get rich quick.

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