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oil for flat tappet cam Pages: 12

mhamilton on Tue December 19, 2006 9:32 PM User is offlineView users profile

Year: 80
Make: Chevy

It must have been over a year ago, I asked about cam break-in procedure for my old small block, and Bohica explained how cam wear was due to missing zinc in modern oils.

I've been running 15w40 diesel engine oil for the last 24k miles. I'm finding that this oil is a bit thick for winter, and I would like to go back to a 10w30 all year--for economy, and also because diesel engine oils are going to loose their zinc as well. Now that the cam is all broken in, is there any need for the additives? Can I go back to a regular Valvoline oil?

Or do I need to add a few ounces of GM's EOS? Or would any "break-in" supplement do the job?

Thanks,
-Michael

chris142 on Tue December 19, 2006 11:53 PM User is offline

You still need to Zinc in the oil. See if you can find oil thats "SL" rated and not "SM". Most 10w-40's are still "SL". If you can find some SLOB that will work with any "SM" oil.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=474725&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

Or see if you can find a 10w-30 deisel oil. Shell makes a Rotella 10w-30. Not sure if it's "SL" or "SM"
though.

bohica2xo on Wed December 20, 2006 4:03 AM User is offline

Michael:

Shell makes a semi-synthetic Rotella T in 5W - 40 that should work for you. It still has about 2% zinc in it as well.

I have seen it in quart bottles at the local Wal-Mart. Now that you have the cam well burnished, the 5W - 40 weight oil should be fine year round.

Glad to see your rebuild went well.


B.

Rotella T Synthetic 5W - 40 specs

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

mhamilton on Wed December 20, 2006 10:21 AM User is offlineView users profile

Thanks!

I will have to see what viscosity is available... will look for a diesel oil in the 10w30. Would be easier than buying regular oil and an additive.

But, with the new diesels that are being reformulated, will those still have enough zinc?

Actually, didn't go through a rebuild, just replaced the lifters and did the break-in procedure again. The cam looked fine, so it seems I lucked out getting a good burnish to begin with. Didn't fix the ticking, but that's another story...

NickD on Wed December 20, 2006 11:19 AM User is offline

Thought my 454 was tick free until I started it in 5*F weather, one valve ticked like crazy, but fortunately quieted down after ten minutes of running. Just tells me varnish build up in the hydraulic lifters, none of this magic in a can stuff worked for me, only way I know of is to remove the lifters and manually clean them. The oil circulation in these things is very poor and varnish does build up.

Perhaps why the Honda engines of the eighties used manually adjusted solid lifters, wasn't really a problem as the adjustment lasted for thousands and thousands of miles and the valve cover was extremely easy to remove. My Supra uses fixed disks of many different sizes for valve adjustment, have to measure very carefully and order the right size disk that is a pain in the butt.

Ha, if we just purchased new cars and traded them in before the warranty expired, wouldn't have this problem, would be dead broke, but what the heck, LOL.

mhamilton on Wed December 20, 2006 3:23 PM User is offlineView users profile

It does sound for all the world like a lifter tick, but I just can't find anything wrong. I changed all the lifters, what are the odds of getting 2 separate bad lifters in the same engine? They weren't GM lifters, but I think they were Federal Mogul. I can find no lash in any of the rockers, have the nuts marked to track any change in lash, all are still 1 full turn from zero last. The only thing I can think of at this point is an internal defect causing poor oil pressure to the lifters... but doesn't sound like all the lifters ticking. And it does seem to go away at some times when it's hot, but unpredictably. That's another reason I want to go to a lighter oil, maybe the 15w40 is too thick.

I forgot to ask, if I went with a regular oil, how much additive would I need? Something like 4 oz of the GM EOS?

Would any other "break-in" additive be equivalent to the GM stuff. Can't see going to the dealer every time I need to change my oil...

chris142 on Wed December 20, 2006 10:02 PM User is offline

I chased a tick in a friends 307 Chevy till I pulled my hair out. We replaced all the lifters, adjusted them etc. Turned out to be the fuel pump pushrod making the noise.

mhamilton on Thu December 21, 2006 9:45 AM User is offlineView users profile

I had replaced the fuel pump recently, there seemed to be enough spring pressure to keep the pushrod at zero lash.

Just last week I got 4 pages of suggestions on the hotrodders forum... I don't think I'll really find the problem until I tear the engine down.

This ticking is very intermittent... it doesn't tick in gear, sometimes goes away when hot, always ticks during deceleration. Seems like I have some kind of loose valve guide, or possibly piston slap. I can't even isolate the noise to one part of the engine, it's just everywhere in the block. Could even be a missing/damaged thrust washer.

If this engine will make it to 50k miles, then I will pull it out, check everything, and have it machined and balanced better than a Rolls.

mhamilton on Tue December 26, 2006 6:10 PM User is offlineView users profile

I couldn't find any 10w30 diesel rated oil, so I ended up getting regular 10w30. It's the SM type, so I got a bottle of the GM EOS Assembly Lube. Added 1/2 the bottle (8 oz) with my 2nd quart of oil. It sank right to the bottom of the bottle, so I wonder how much good it will do?

I was reading this online article in Hot Rod Magazine, they recommend using this GM "camshaft and lifter prelube" with each oil change when using SM oils. Is there any big difference?

PS: I still can't get registered with Bob's oil site, not sure what happened with that.

Edited: Tue December 26, 2006 at 6:11 PM by mhamilton

HerkyJim on Thu December 28, 2006 1:49 PM User is offline

Back about 39 years ago when I was more ambitious, I pulled the manifold off my 20,000 mile '65 Chev 327 to "fix" a "ticking" lifter. Took 'em all apart, cleaned in laquer thinner, inspected with magnifying glass, reassembled and replaced two lifters with new GM lifters. Same ticking.

Have a '72 Valiant 318, 219,000 miles. Have one lifter "ticking" sometimes for a few minutes after startup. Will disappear after a very few minutes. I can get it to stop 99% of the time by shutting the engine off and restarting it after a couple of seconds. MY theory is an oil pressuer obstruction somewhere to that lifter that is cleared by relieving the pressure momentarily and hitting it with fresh pressure. Does it winter and summer. MOPAR guys say thats common.

About oil: I've been changing about every 2 1/2 -3 monthe or 3,000 miles and using Walmart 15-40 diesel oil or whatever is on sale. Got a bunch of Chevron Supreme 5-30 and 10-30 for $0.49 a qt "after rebate". Also got several jugs of Delo 400 15-40 on sale. I just changed oil the other day and put in 2 qt Delo 400 and 3 qt Chevron 5-30. Makes me feel a little bit better about running 5-30 in that old engine. I think almost everybody makes too big of deal about engine oil. Unless you are running wild cam profiles with heavy valve springs pressures, or breaking in a new cam and/or liftersI think most people can get by just fine with Wally-World 10-30. It meets API specs which are "good enough". "If the minimum wasn't good enough, it wouldn't be the minimum".

I would run synthetic in winter if I lived in cold climate place. I remember starting my little Piper PA-16 which had a Lycoming O-235 several time in Alaska winter without preheating. Straight Aeroshell 50 wt. Makes me cringe to think about it even now.

Unless I am missing something, doesn't the current SM spec API also meet the specs of the preceding, just using newer/different additive technology?

Bob is The Oil Guy website. More chaff than wheat. Lots of cranks and nutcases, but some good info occasionally. My $0.02

Edited: Thu December 28, 2006 at 1:51 PM by HerkyJim

mhamilton on Thu December 28, 2006 7:31 PM User is offlineView users profile



From these numbers there's only a 33% decrease in zinc between SH and SM, and a 20% decrease between SL and SM. Seems like there should be enough for normal engines, once broken in. I have heard from some people that run SM oils with no problems at all, once broken in. Even some of the cam manufacturer's instructions (Comp Cams) say regular oil is fine after breakin. I used a little of the EOS just to be safe. If I can get Rotella in 10w30, I think I'll do that just to add longevity. It works out to the same cost per quart for Rotella-T as regular API SM + the EOS.

I really needed a lighter oil than the 15w40 I was using. It was turning over very slow on these cold mornings (not even that cold, 30-40 degrees). Now it cranks right up, and hopefully I will see better economy.

I'm pretty sure my noise isn't a lifter. I also don't think it's loud enough to be piston slap, but have not ruled that out. I'm thinking it's a bad valve guide, or possibly a wrist pin. It does have a fluttering vacuum gauge at idle, smoothes out with more rpm.... but that could be completely unrelated to the noise. It does quiet down once I've done some highway driving, but always ticks loudly on deceleration, and ticks constantly over 1800 rpm.

BTW, I had thought it might be internal oil leakage causing lifter problems, so just the other day I put a real gauge on the engine. I had 35 psi at idle, at full operating temperature. Went up to 60 psi at 1500 rpm and above.

NickD on Sun December 31, 2006 7:47 AM User is offline

Does using a heavier weight engine oil really quiet a noisy engine? No, could try a high temperature axle wheel grease with saw dust mixed in, well, maybe in a noisy differential, too many fine oil passages in an engine. On cold start up with a heavier oil and already partially plugged passages, a heavier oil can escalate engine damage. Not getting the flow, cold start up is the worse case scenario for engine wear even with finer oils. I love people that after having engine starting problems, they floor the gas pedal, but glad it is their vehicle and not mine.

Guess I never did dig into the constituents of the chemical composition of engine oils, do prefer name brands however not really trusting the much cheaper private branding. Still feel you don't get something for nothing, Great Value for the most part sucks when over 50% of the hamburger goes down the drain with moisture and fat and generic drugs are not the same as name brand when they leave off the protective coating so the drug metabolizes in your stomach burning holes in it rather than in the intestines. Yeah, but doctors and pharmacists say they are the same, BS, to that statement.

So what about engine oils and other important fluids? Not about to save a few cents and try the cheaper brands, such a statement of being penny wise and pound foolish.

What works with an engine is too take it apart and have a cast iron block get an acid bath, aluminum has to be heated to 650* F to burn off the crude, but have to say with good engine oil changes, keeping the car in tune, engine outlasts the rest of the car. Can't really drive a vehicle with the shock towers rusted out even with a good engine.

Do not feel that any magic in a can can save a noisy engine, time for a major overhaul.

Dougflas on Sun December 31, 2006 5:45 PM User is offline

Years ago, I used to drill a hole thru the heads where the studs were pressed in. The placed a pin thru the hole. Stopped ticking and constant adjustments on the solid lifter cams. Those were the days when you didn't mind working on cars.

NickD on Tue January 02, 2007 8:40 AM User is offline

Sounds like the 50's Chevy V-8's, with 150 pound valve springs, lots of upward force to push those press fit rocker arm studs out.

Recollection is a bit different than yours, had to remove the heads for the cross drilling with quite a struggle to get off that rusty Y pipe and exhaust manifold bolts, would always break some of those bolts or studs, granted, the rest was easy. Also recall hydraulic lifters that had to be cleaned and valve covers loaded with sludge, oil bath air cleaner and a breather that would suck in tons of road dust.

In my opinion at the time, the Olds, Buick, and Caddies used threaded rocker arm threads that was a very good reason not to buy a Chevy. Buick's and Caddies also had machined combustion chamber that were much easier to clean, very minimal machining on the Chevy blocks, if a big wad of cast iron flashing cleared the crankshaft by a couple of thousandths, they just left it there.

Mervo Pressfit was the engineer that put in pressed in rocker arm studs, GM let him go, but hired him back for the AC compressor hubs.

mhamilton on Tue January 02, 2007 5:20 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: NickD
Do not feel that any magic in a can can save a noisy engine, time for a major overhaul.

Are you speaking in general? The oil supplement I used wasn't to quiet the engine, these are two separate issues that got blended in this thread. The EOS was to replace missing additives a flat tappet cam needs to prevent wear. The ticking noise was a secondary issue.

For all I know, it could have a wiped rod bearing. Weirder things have happened. Heard from a friend who worked at a dealer years ago, once found an engine that had a lighter ticking than my engine, and he found the crank was completely ruined by a bad rod bearing. Don't think it's a lifter noise at all. If you give my engine even the slightest throttle, the ticking stops instantly. Comes right back when you let off. So, I guess I could "solve" the ticking by raising my idle 20 rpm, but I'm not going to do that.

chaddyboy76 on Thu April 05, 2007 3:43 AM User is offlineView users profile

hey you said you didnt do a rebuild just changed lifters .......how much oil pressure does the engine have at idle ? you said it quietened down after idling it up some..it could be bearings worn yes but if the oil pump is weak at idle that makes it that much worst. sounds like when your idling it up its putting more oil pressure to the bearings and quietning it down. theres many possibilities to your ticking.....and when a cam starts wearing a lobe off it will tick...you can readjust the valves and it will be quiet for a few seconds and the ticking sound will come back.....and stay..... until cam is replaced ....it could be lots of things....roller rocker arms will be a little noisy...certain namebrand camshafts ive used on performance motors in the past are known to be a little noisy like the ticking your describing....the comp cams extreme energy cams are very agressive and are noisy especially the 274 grind. and will wipe off lobes faster than other cams ...due of there fast opening and closing ramp designs if they are not broke in correctly! can you tell me more about your engine and specs? ive been around chevy engines all my life ...my dad worked at a chevrolet dealer for 25 years starting in about 1964 to 1989.... and ive heard lots of stories like yours....i build engines myself now and im 30 years old..and broke in the last 5 with valvoline 10w30 and havent seen one wipe out the cam yet.... but they just have in the past year changed the oil i just finished one last week and broke in with the new changed valvoline....but built engine with gm's eos assembly lubricant and havent had any problems .... but am going to change and refill with valvoline 10w40 after about 500 or so miles. please tell me more about your engine .....mileage...parts in it.....etc........ hope i can help.

mhamilton on Fri April 06, 2007 10:16 AM User is offlineView users profile

This is a 1980 229 V6, I did a complete rebuild 3 years ago, completly stock. Nothing has ever stopped the ticking. The most recent attempt was to replace the lifters and valvetrain hardware. The old lifters were fine, still had their curve on the bottoms. The cam looked fine (been using diesel oil since breakin), and quick measurements showed no lobe deterioration. Oil pressure (at the back of the block) is 40 psi at 700 rpm hot, jumps up to 60 psi when taken off idle.

As of right now, there is absolutely no lash in the valvetrain. I do not belive the lifters or cam are the problem.

My thought is either piston slap, or some other excessive clearance in the bottom end. When I start the engine cold, the ticking is sharp and more like a "click." Once I've drive a few miles, the ticking becomes less noticeable, more of a rough sound at idle. But, no matter what temperature, if I'm at cruising speed and let off the gas (going downhill, etc) the ticking gets very loud and sharp. As soon as I touch the gas, ticking stops.

I don't think I will solve this ticking until I pull the engine out and strip it back down.

Edited: Fri April 06, 2007 at 11:18 AM by mhamilton

NickD on Fri April 06, 2007 3:33 PM User is offline

You have all the symptoms of a rod knock, always worse when you let your foot off the gas, may be quiet on acceleration now, but that ticking will turn to pounding over time and you will even hear it on acceleration, but still much noisier when you let your foot off the gas.

Mains tick under heavy loads, more difficult to tell.

mhamilton on Fri April 06, 2007 3:48 PM User is offlineView users profile

That may very well be the problem. It is noisy when the engine is under high load, if I accelerate and push it really hard. Sometimes at high interstate speeds the engine is in there ticking away. It may actually be preferable to piston slap, at least that way I would not need the block bored over any more. We'll see what happens, it's at 30k miles now, if it makes it to 50k without grenading, I'll pull it out then.

I've heard from a number of people with 229s and rod knocks. I suspect the small bearing area is part of the problem. To make these engines somewhat even fire, GM splayed the crank pins 18* apart. This reduced the size of the rod bearing, althought they must have figured a light duty V6 would not require more bearing... not sure how, because it has the same piston loads as the 305 V8.

NickD on Sat April 07, 2007 8:06 AM User is offline

Those were the GM and Ford panic years, and Chrysler almost went under, still building large gas hungry cars during an energy crisis while Toyota, Nissan, and Honda were already prepared. More time was wasted partially switching to the metric system when Japan wanted vehicles with steering wheels on the right hand side.

Again, GM and Ford are really hurting today with another energy crisis, Chrysler isn't even an American company anymore, but we are getting gas today, just have to pay for it. Eased EPA regulations for trucks really pushed this market, even though nobody figured out these trucks and vans were being sold and used as passenger vehicles, duh.

So here we go again, current CAFE ratings are worse than they were in 1980, and thousands of jobs are being lost, more automotive workers on welfare while Toyota is taking the lead.

Was a traitor back then, as much as I hated the Japanese for taking 90% of our electronics market, actually they didn't take it, our government gave it to them by giving us hell with the EPA, OSHA, and the ERA, taxes on inventory, etc. and actually giving the Japs 10% back of every buck they exported into this county, I purchased Honda's. Least I had a car that was reliable and got good fuel economy. But had to buy two of them, one for each foot.

TXAB on Sun June 10, 2007 11:04 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: NickD
You have all the symptoms of a rod knock, always worse when you let your foot off the gas, may be quiet on acceleration now, but that ticking will turn to pounding over time and you will even hear it on acceleration, but still much noisier when you let your foot off the gas.

Mains tick under heavy loads, more difficult to tell.

I agree with Nick. Sounds very similiar to what happened to my engine.



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