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Carrier inducer Wheel? Pages: 12

FrankD. on Sat January 19, 2008 3:40 PM User is offline

Carrier inducer Wheel?

Looking for information on carrier inducer blower wheel part # LA11AA005.
This squirrel cage fan is on my carrier furnace 58DH and has warped and now vibrates.
I would like to know if carrier has made any changes to the fan over the years or has any service update

FASCO replacement part # 1-6141.
http://www.autoacforum.com/forumimages/b4_1.jpeg



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FrankD.

Edited: Sat January 19, 2008 at 4:29 PM by FrankD.

Karl Hofmann on Sat January 19, 2008 4:12 PM User is offlineView users profile

Inducer wheel?? That looks like a flue fan.. and if it is, then you should know that anything more modern is automatically poorer

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

FrankD. on Sat January 19, 2008 4:35 PM User is offline

Hello Karl
Yes the LA11AA005 is the fan blade (blower wheel) that pulls the flames through the combustion chamber on my horizontal natural gas furnace.
The latest part looks just like the original part with the wheel crimped together.

I have never seen a crimped together (tabbed) cage-fan before, it looks cheap.
Seams like it should be brazed or welded together for strength and to reduce warping.


Forgot to mention the inducer motor spins up around 3,000 RPM.

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FrankD.

Edited: Sat January 19, 2008 at 4:55 PM by FrankD.

NickD on Sat January 19, 2008 8:23 PM User is offline

Must be pretty dumb this week, MikeP asked me if I knew anything about the climate control lamp dimming circuits in a 99 Olds radio, like your squirrel cage blower wheel, have to give the same answer, sorry, do not. With Mike, why? His old radio went south and purchased an aftermarket radio from crutchfield, when he installed, his climate control lamps went out, he calls crutchfield, and they have no answers for him. Send me the circuit, every dash lamp including the radio is grounded and connected to the dimmer module. Except the also ground lamps in the climate control. I suggest he just run that one wire to the dimmer bus, he tries that and they run a full brilliance, no dimming, annoying. Has to be something both in the radio as the dimmer wire runs into that, with another wire running out to the climate control panel lamps, plus maybe some other circuitry in that panel as well. Beats the heck out of me, but when I run into stuff like that, have to take everything apart and hand trace the circuitry, they sure don't show that stuff in the automotive circuit diagrams.

So what makes you think your cage is the cause of the vibration, could also be a bent motor shaft causing the problem, that was the problem with my refrigerator fan if you recall, dang near spent 40 bucks for that cheap ass motor, except the appliance dealer didn't take credit cards and I only had change in my pocket. Never did go back, but hit my hardware store and purchased a complete bathroom fan with a much nicer motor in it for ten bucks. Did have to drill the bore out in the fan as the old motor was 1/8" in diameter and probably why it bent in the first place, new one was 3/16". Wasn't that last year? Still running nice and quiet.

Also with cages, the driving wheel tend to bend, but I see yours has a deep concave surface rather than flat, can spin it on a rod the same diameter and check the TIR on it and bend it back so it's true again. Seems like anything you buy nowadays is a PITA. Agree?

FrankD. on Sat January 19, 2008 10:25 PM User is offline

Nick you are correct the cage fan is warped like a brake rotor.
So far all I can find out is that the fan and motor are popular replacement parts and Johnstone Supply stocks after-market.
The inducer motor locked up about 5 years into service (around1990) and the installer wanted $400. + to replace it. Motor has 5/16 SS shaft on oillight bronze bushings and the heat dried the oil up in the front bushing. Took the non-serviceable motor apart and cleaned up the shaft and bushing and added Zoom oil to the bushing felts.
One year later it started dragging and after disassembly I found the front oil felt dry from heat again.
I switched to Amsoil 5W20 and have had no more trouble with the bushings drying out. This is not the correct oil but it does not burn out like the Zoom oil.
I tried to straighten the fan out the other day with no luck. Could not be aggressive with it knowing a stretch of colder weather was about to hit. LOL


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FrankD.

Karl Hofmann on Sun January 20, 2008 6:10 AM User is offlineView users profile

Frank, I change 3 to 4 of those little suckers a week, normally the motor bearings are shot and have too much play in them, never seen the squirrel cage warp though...Yep those little fans are just plain cheap and nasty but at least yours isn't an infinitely variable speed motor.. they are seriously dear... The manufacturers work on the theory of " You either pay or freeze"

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

NickD on Sun January 20, 2008 9:45 AM User is offline

I wonder about these convection oven fans, little shaded pole motor sitting at the rear of an electric range, when I purchased my last range, said no, how can a motor survive in that environment especially during the cleaning cycle where the oven temperature exceeds 600*F. Plus it was a 150 buck option, I had a convection over years ago, would burn the top of a cake and the bottom would be raw, thought that was kind of dumb.

In looking at hot water heater, really looked hard at fan forced combustion chambers thinking I could save bundles on my natural gas bill, one style used room air with a fan blowing out the flue, the really expensive ones took air from the outside, heated it and blew it back out. 200-500 bucks more per tank, only a six rather than a twelve year warranty and that's on the tank, not on the electronics, plus read users reviews with the problems these guys were having with them paying a couple of hundred bucks for a service call after a year or two. Well, where are the overall savings? That energy label only shows a savings of 20 therms per year over a conventional tank plus if the electricity goes out, so does your hot water. Numbers looked like over a 12 year period, could pay an extra 1,500 bucks or more if things go wrong just to save 240 bucks in fuel.

Still have a burner type furnace with a heat vent exchanger and damper, suppose to be 85% efficient, with a fan forced unit, can up that by maybe 7% with a fan forced combustion chamber, like the hot water heater, that would cost a fortune, both to buy and to maintain. Mine is a 120K BTU input, when it was new, I cut that back to 65K, when the gas kicked on, could hear that thing creaking and snapping as that huge flame expanded the heat exchanger, nice and quiet now. Do monitor the CO and CO2, well below limits. House is a nice 72*F now, outside is -20*F with wind chills around 30-40 below, but the system is simple.

Once a year, I pull the thing apart, clean and check the heat exchanger, burners, pull the blower and remove the rotor to check the bearings and oiling, do the same thing with the AC system, still looks like a new furnace, did have problems with a dirty limit switch contacts a couple of months ago, cleaned those. After 23 years, only spent a couple of bucks on a couple of cans of R-22, idiots that installed it, didn't tighten the fittings, and had to buy a new relay contactor for the AC compressor, nothing left of the contacts, ha too bad you just can't buy the contacts, that cost 24 bucks, so only spent about 26 bucks for parts over a 23 year period. I did buy an electronic air cleaner, what a piece of crap that thing was, not only did it not remove all the dust, but was putting ozone into the air. Dumped that and switch to micron washable filters that do a much better job, no longer find dirt in my blower motor.

But I still look for something better to lower my gas bill, maybe moving down south is the answer. Gas bill was 600 bucks a year five years ago, this year was $1,250.00. I hear about people spending 500 bucks a month down south to cool their homes, that really has to add up. Is this true?

FrankD. on Sun January 20, 2008 6:30 PM User is offline


OK Karl you have me wondering what brands of furnace’s you have in the UK.



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FrankD.

bohica2xo on Sun January 20, 2008 8:36 PM User is offline

Actually the "tabbed" fan will hang in there better than a brazed unit of the same gauge, simply because it has some way to relieve stress induced by uneven heating.

Aircooled VW's used just such a tabbed assemby for the cooling fan for decades without any issues. I managed to ruin one with a 6 pound flywheel on an engine nearly double the displacement of the stock unit (2274 cc's) - it got loose & noisy as hell. TIG welding each tab on a new fan was not the answer either - that unit failed faster than the OEM unit.

I had an induced air high effeciency furnace at one time, but the blower was mounted some distance from the hot zone - it fed the combustion air side of things. The PVC flue pipe was a unique thing back then. The blower discharge had a flow switch, and it locked out the gas until there was airflow for 90 seconds. I lived in california at the time, and the furnace was not legal to sell there - I had to drive to Phoenix to buy a high effeciency furnace.

B.

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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

MrBillPro on Sun January 20, 2008 11:41 PM User is offlineView users profile

Just get the oem wheel stick it on there and your good to go, I never just change the IDM "Induced Draft Motor" wheel, we always change out the whole assembly, being in the business you are better off doing the whole thing that way both are new and the wheel is balanced to the motor. Those IDM's turn 3000 RPM so if that thing vibrated very long you can bet the sleeves or if your lucky the bearings are probably history are close to history, yes as a homeowner DIY it would be more economical to do the wheel only, I don't know of any service company's that would only change the wheel, but I am sure there are some, but you can bet they will be back in the near future changing the motor.

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Don't take life seriously... Its not permanent.

NickD on Mon January 21, 2008 7:25 AM User is offline

Putting the metal cage in a lath and using a concave ball bearing bit can straighten it out in a hurry, a lot like like metal spinning, if it is bend, but from the history, feel it's more like a worn bronze bearing and unless you can make your own, will never find a replacement. Ha, just like replacing a late model GM blower motor, comes with a plastic cage already hot melted on the shaft. Can't remove that without breaking it and if you could, would never attach it properly again, so you just pitch the entire thing. Least it's small enough so you don't have to pay a recycling charge. Off the subject, since the city wouldn't take my old hot water heater tank, I left it sit out by the road, a guy drives by and asks me if he can have it and was even willing to pay for it, cuts them in half and sells them for hog watering. Said just take it and save me $31.50.

I agree with Bill, believe it or not, replace the motor, question is, what does a new one cost? Bet it's a cheap ass shaded pole motor that is not cheap to buy. But it does have to be relubricated at least once a year, and willing to bet as well, a brand new motor is already half dry, seeing a lot of that lately, not only in ball bearings, but in pumps, and motors as well, where's the grease?

Exactly what temperature is this motor seeing? Can't be much over 200*F, would try 3 in 1 synthetic fractional HP electric motor oil, had good success with it unless anyone has a better suggestion. Doesn't carbon up. That once a year maintenance is sure a lot easier than shovelling coal 6-8 times per day plus carrying out the ashes. Still can't believe I was made to do that at six years old. Thought about that when my kids were that age, did get away from that for awhile, but had that chore again in our highly advanced military.

Karl Hofmann on Mon January 21, 2008 4:49 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: FrankD.
OK Karl you have me wondering what brands of furnace’s you have in the UK.


Frank, forced air heating systems are very rare over here and not well liked, I have only seen one..Ever. We tend to use wet systems using a central heating boiler to heat either an open vented domestic hot water Cylinder and wall mounted radiators or an unvented cylinder and underfloor heating.. Smaller properties use what is called a Combination Boiler or Combi for short which heats radiators or underfloor but heats the domestic hot water instantly as it is used. Naturally combis are limited in flow and range from a flow of 9 litres a minute to 17 litres per minute but it does mean that you only heat the water that you are using which is good since outr gas has just increased in price by 15%

I favor the use of Worcester Bosch boilers which are a pretty good make as are Vaillant and Veissman, but stuff from Baxi and Potterton are also well liked. Sadly Ideal quality has slipped to where most gas fitters would rather fit a cheap boiler from Italy

Worcester 30Si


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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

Edited: Mon January 21, 2008 at 4:50 PM by Karl Hofmann

NickD on Mon January 21, 2008 5:38 PM User is offline

Quote
forced air heating systems are very rare over here and not well liked

Has to be some reason for that Karl to prefer hot water heat over forced air. Forced air is very easily adapter to AC, can be very quiet if installed properly, easier to vacuum ductwork than to replace rotted out plumbing, air that leaks out doesn't cause stains, air is instantaneous heat or cold, no time delay in heating the water first, temperature control is far more precise than heat retentive water, efficiency is much greater with forced air, replacement components are much cheaper and just limited to the furnace, good ductwork just does not wear, plug, or rot out, and the household plumbing hot water system is independent of the central heating system with many different choices as how you want to heat your shower hot water, plus no water pumps to burn out.

Shed some light on the hot water heat preference in the UK, please.

Karl Hofmann on Mon January 21, 2008 6:11 PM User is offlineView users profile

I would guess that it is all down to noise Nick, and the fact that our houses are smaller and not so easy to fit ducting to for forced air.. I can provide heating for the whole house down a couple of 22mm pipes. Copper pipe is the norm for domestic central heating pipes running a water loop but modern homes are more likely to have each radiator fed from 10mm plastic pipe fed from a manifold, the only time I see corrosion is when a copper pipe hasn't been sleeved when passed though a brick wall and the lime in the mortar promotes corrosion. We don't really like draughts or other forms of air movement and find that heating with water is a far more gentle way of doing it. My heating is running now and I can't hear the boiler or the water flowing through the pipes, we can keep a pretty close temperature control using water too. I tend to leave my heating on most of the time and heat the fabric of the house so that it acts as a heat store to even temperatures out, the boiler runs on barely tick over and just topps up the temperature.. Underfloor is even better for this and allows the condensing boilers to run at their most efficient

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

mhamilton on Mon January 21, 2008 7:49 PM User is offlineView users profile

I sure do miss my old steam heat. Up where I was in NJ, all the houses were built long before a/c, so had steam. Had an oil burner with a single pipe system, the pipes would creak if they were in the outside walls, but not a big annoyance. In the '80s we changed the cast iron radiators to baseboard, those worked very nicely with even distribution. I did like the way the heat would continue to rise after the boiler shut off, the harsh hot/cold cycle is noticeable with my forced air system.

In this house in NC a/c was priority, so have forced air as a result. The dryness is irritating, and the built in humidifiers were ineffective, molded over, and leaked all in the first year. So those were taken out of service.

My Grandmother's house was built with a coal boiler, but that was gone before my time. There was some kind of automatic regulator for that, had an electric motor on the basement wall, with a sprocket and bicycle chain. Had an electric thermostat controlling the motor. I guess it would open and close the damper... but it was dismantled long before my time. Anyone ever see a system like that?

NickD on Mon January 21, 2008 8:43 PM User is offline

Guess a lot depends on the installation, outside temperature now is 1*F with winds from the NE at 6 mph, inside is 72*F with an RH of 32%, blower is running a very low speed, can barely hear it. If a home is drafty, way oversized furnace, high blower speeds, will be very dry and noisy, been in homes like that. Most homes up here are still of wood frame construction, 2 by 12 floor joists, 6" walls, so plenty of space to mount and hide the duct work. All heat registers are mounted on outside walls with cold air returns mounted on walls near the center of the house, practically every home up here has a basement so the floors are warm to the bare feet.

If you can trust the memory of a five year old kid, my grandfather had quite the installation burning coal, his basement was clean and would only buy pellet type anthracite coal for his six unit apartment. He had a bin with a cover on it, guessing about over three foot tall, that wide and about four feet long. Went down with him frequently, a big red thing, said he had to fill that bin only once a night, there was some kind of screw on the floor that would automatically feed the coal from that bin to his boiler, that was a big sucker, especially to a five year old kid. Also another screw that moved the ashes out, but I never went back there. We lived in one in his apartments for about a year, I liked it and couldn't wait until he got home at night when I was three years old, but I guess my ma never got along with my grandma, so we moved to a rat hole, grandpa died when I was six, the saddest day of my life.

But they did have some nice coal systems back then, AC? What was that.

mhamilton on Mon January 21, 2008 9:30 PM User is offlineView users profile

Been searching around google, found one big name was "Iron Fireman" and their automatic coal firing. Worked as you describe... fed coal in and took ashes out. What I can make of the picture, looks like what you describe, too.

Here's an ad for sale: 1938 Iron Fireman but it's not large. Still looking for some clearer info on these setups.

I think what was in my grandparent's house was similar, but the motor and controls were mounted on the wall. I remember the chains that were (after being abandoned) hung up on a nail on the joist. They were long enough to have gone to the front of the coal furnace and work some kind of conveyer.

But, all of that was replaced with an oil burner in the '50s. I remember they had huge GE window air conditioners in the bedrooms. They took up the entire window opening, stuck in 6" and stuck out about 12". My grandmother never liked them. She would occasionally turn hers on just to cool the room down, then shut it off the rest of the night. I only remember using one in the guest room once or twice. Probably lucky we didn't burn in the night from setting the antique wiring on fire!

Ha, just found this tucked away in my pictures folder... must have found it online years ago:



Edited: Mon January 21, 2008 at 9:35 PM by mhamilton

FrankD. on Tue January 22, 2008 1:12 AM User is offline

Replaced the warped Carrier blower wheel with a Fasco #1-6141 from Johnstone for $18.
The new fan sure made a big difference in noise reduction.
Measured the chamber temp at the inducer motor at around 200* to 240* depending on burn time.

When I have a warmer day I plan to swap the rear inducer motor shaft bushing with the front worn bushing.


Thanks for the reply's.


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FrankD.

NickD on Tue January 22, 2008 7:44 AM User is offline

Frank, is this an open frame type motor? Something like this:




Or more like this?




Or do you have something that looks like this?



These are from the Grainger site, I use to buy a lot from Grainger, but lately their prices have gone crazy. We still have an electric motor shop in town run by a guy that must be a hundred years old, with luck, I can find a part from him yet. But places like that are rapidly disappearing and you can't find stuff like that at Wal-Mart. Seems dumb to me you have to buy a new appliance just because you need a 3 cent part. And if you do, have to pay a small fortune to a recycling place to get rid of the old one. They got you both coming and going.

UK Tech on Tue January 22, 2008 11:29 AM User is offline

I've got a 1961 boiler in the cellar that runs either wood or oil. All the radiators are fed with 25mm steel pipe, with no pump to circulate the water. The idea is they could be used in houses without electricity (on wood). There's a lift up flap that controls the draft, and a single valve that controls the speed of the water to the radiator circuit. The draft flap is connected by chain to a lever that is some sort of bi-metalic strip that measures the water temperature. As the temp drops the lever yanks the chain and opens the draft. When up to temperature it relaxes and damps down the fire. Works a treat, and with little to go wrong. If you want the house warmer, you just open the water valve a little.

The only problem is regulating the house temperature, but I'm fitting thermostatic valves to the radiators so I can just leave the water valve open.

FrankD. on Tue January 22, 2008 12:44 PM User is offline

Nick the inducer motor is a shaded pole about the size of soup can and looks like your second picture.

The inducer motor and will probably last longer that the main blower motor. The only reason I plan to swap the bushings is because the back will be tighter than the front. I have more time than money so why not repair a part instead of replacing it.

This furnace is over 20 years old and needs to be replaced with a more efficient model. So far the only furnace I have found with a stainless steel combustion chamber is Armstrong and Amana but no one installs those here.



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FrankD.

powerflite on Tue January 22, 2008 12:58 PM User is offline

The old GE A/C ad reminded me of a window unit we had in the early 60's. It was an old Carrier unit that essentially balanced on the widow sill with about a 12" overhang inside and even more on the outside. It was a trade in from someone on a newer unit. Since it was so old (probably early 50's), no one wanted it. My dad brought it home and it looked and ran like new. Believe it or not, it used R12 instead of R-22 and the compressor bolted together. Ran on 110V so I am guessing it was about 6,000 to 8.000 BTU. I also remember old Mathis window a/c's that had plywood bottoms. That sounds funny today, but they actually lasted longer than the rusty steel ones everyone else was using!

Wonder if there is an old ac and/or household appliance museum somewhere. If not, there ought to be.

NickD on Tue January 22, 2008 5:45 PM User is offline

Quote
furnace is over 20 years old

Ha, Frank, have any 20 year old vehicles that are still working? If you are looking a more efficient furnaces, let me know what you find. None of this 5-10% increase crap, the way natural gas prices are rising, if I want to return to where my gas bill was six years ago, find me a furnace that is at least 230% efficient.

UKTech, we should get into the theory of a damper as to how they really work. Been away from dampers for quite awhile, no instructions came how to use them, you could completely close them, cough, cough, but had to learn by experimentation the best setting so the fire would burn out night without freezing to death when you woke up in the morning.

Since I am getting 50 zillion warnings when I buy a 89 cent extension cord, are they doing the same with dampers today?

mhamilton on Tue January 22, 2008 6:11 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: powerflite
The old GE A/C ad reminded me of a window unit we had in the early 60's. It was an old Carrier unit that essentially balanced on the widow sill with about a 12" overhang inside and even more on the outside. It was a trade in from someone on a newer unit. Since it was so old (probably early 50's), no one wanted it. My dad brought it home and it looked and ran like new. Believe it or not, it used R12 instead of R-22 and the compressor bolted together. Ran on 110V so I am guessing it was about 6,000 to 8.000 BTU. I also remember old Mathis window a/c's that had plywood bottoms. That sounds funny today, but they actually lasted longer than the rusty steel ones everyone else was using!

Wonder if there is an old ac and/or household appliance museum somewhere. If not, there ought to be.

I would also get a kick out of seeing one of those old a/c units up close.

I have very vague memories of those GE units, one being the 6 blade fan behind the air filter. Would get Grandmom yelling if I took that filter off, told that I would loose a hand with that exposed fan LOL.... also remember them being extremely quiet units, just a light hum from the fan itself. I do know they were 110v units as well, so not sure what was taking up all that space.

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