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Big 3 bankruptcy Pages: 12

MikeH on Mon November 17, 2008 10:05 AM User is offline

This article from Heritage gave me some insight on the big 3 bankruptcy possibility. Really kind of interesting.
Big 3

mhamilton on Mon November 17, 2008 11:51 AM User is offlineView users profile

Wow, 300k retired workers on the payroll. Although I understand the intentions of the unions, I really dislike them. Back in NJ, my mother "had" to join the teacher's union and pay their dues. That never sat quite right with me.

I also have always been against government subsidy... markets should be free to operate via the invisible hand. That is really in the best interest of everyone.

2005Equinox on Mon November 17, 2008 8:22 PM User is offline

Most of the time that is true but a huge part of our economy is the big 3. If they were just to simply cease to exist I think that would make a profound change on this country and not for the better. I wonder if this whole thing is a way to union bust and get the UAW off the big 3. I am not going to get into the pros and cons of unions because I see it both ways. Remember too though that bankrupcy doesnt mean that they are shutting the doors. It just means they can re-organize and at the same time rid themselves of the legecy costs and unions.

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2008 Chevrolet Impala LS
1981 Pontiac Bonneville


2007 Sears Craftsman Lawn Tractor


1985 Chevrolet Caprice


1986 John Deere 165 lawn tractor

mhamilton on Mon November 17, 2008 11:16 PM User is offlineView users profile

Yeah, that's exactly what the article was getting at--that Chapter 11 may do more good for the big three than any bailout that simply delays the inevitable. Really, GM can not continue to operate the way it is... where they seem to think it's 1960 and they're the only game in town.

MrBillPro on Tue November 18, 2008 1:44 PM User is offlineView users profile

Note to everybody with a car warranty. Bankruptcy can do away with your warranty also. Ask any owner of a Daewoo. It isn't just pension and union pay that will go away.

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Don't take life seriously... Its not permanent.

mk378 on Tue November 18, 2008 2:03 PM User is offline

Congress is insisting that overblown executive bonuses made the investment banks go bankrupt, making the bailout of those banks conditional on cuts in executive pay. They need to say the same thing about GM's assembly line wages and benefits.

I don't think anyone in Congress is willing to say that.

TRB on Tue November 18, 2008 10:53 PM User is offlineView users profile

Anyone see Chuck Schumer's speech on why we should just hand out cash to the Big 3. How in the world do these people plan to pay for all these bail outs? After this round of funds is spent will they be back for more as they still will be selling the same vehicles they are now!

It's going to be a tight winter for our company. Anyone know where we sign up for the hand out?

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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com


Edited: Tue November 18, 2008 at 11:55 PM by TRB

bohica2xo on Tue November 18, 2008 11:42 PM User is offline

Well Tim, let's calculate your handout...

25 Billion to GM, Ford & Chryscrap. Let's take an average price of 25k per vehicle at the end of the assembly line. 25Billion/25,000= 1,000,000

ONE MILLION UNITS. Per maker. At their peak (1974), GM & Ford each made more than 2 million vehicles in the US. In 2000, Ford made less than 1.2 million, and GM did a little better, at about 1.8 million.

So, take the total number of kits you build in a great year and cut it in half. Multiply that by the average price of 900 bucks... and that should be your bailout.

BTW, Dodge made about 600,000 vehicles in 1974. In 2000 Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth made 432,933 cars. Pontiac made 573,805. Perhaps you bailout should actually be 100% of a good year's production...

B.


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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

TRB on Tue November 18, 2008 11:59 PM User is offlineView users profile

Brad I think its my responsibility to make it or break it when it comes to my business. I'm just getting a little annoyed at all this governmental crap because people make improper choices. I did not suggest someone to buy a house they could not afford. I did not suggest building vehicles a small percentage want! I feel for the workers and such but when is this going to end? Oh I forgot it will end on January 22nd.

-------------------------

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bohica2xo on Wed November 19, 2008 2:23 AM User is offline

Tim:

My point exactly. The "Big 3" have "managed" themselves into a corner - with plenty of help from the IIHS / UAW / EPA, etc. They can get themselves out of it just like you or I would have to do with our businesses.

As for Klintoons reckless plan to put everyone in a home regardless of ability to pay - I want no part of paying off that debt either but as a taxpayer I will have no choice.

The Half-Honkey is just putting Klintoon's old team back together. "Change"? Yeah right.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

HECAT on Wed November 19, 2008 6:21 AM User is offline

Its all going to be OK.

Think "peoples" bank

Think "peoples" car

Think "peoples" health care

Think "peoples" housing

Criminal Clintons, Crazy Pelosi, and now the Rookie Buck-o-Bama; all clearly indicate we are riding an acid induced flashback of hippie proportions; where the peace and love communes introduced the sharing of the wealth to America as a issues of consciousness and not communism. Now those same hippies have aged and become the elected Democratic officials in charge. We have put the insane in charge of the insane asylum, and we should expect, and have no one but ourselves to blame; when they spread the insanity... uh... the wealth.



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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

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bohica2xo on Thu November 20, 2008 2:02 AM User is offline

Mencken wrote as follows about the difficulties of good men reaching national office when such campaigns must necessarily be conducted remotely:

"The larger the mob, the harder the test. In small areas, before small electorates, a first-rate man occasionally fights his way through, carrying even the mob with him by force of his personality. But when the field is nationwide, and the fight must be waged chiefly at second and third hand, and the force of personality cannot so readily make itself felt, then all the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre — the man who can most easily adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum.
"The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." (Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920)

I think we are there.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

TRB on Thu November 20, 2008 10:00 AM User is offlineView users profile

Now I hear Obama may be selecting our governor as secretary of home land security! This lady has done nothing to protect our border and always claims its federal issue. She has run up the largest deficit of any governor in the US.

Elections have consequences!!!!!

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

HECAT on Fri November 21, 2008 6:16 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: TRB
Now I hear Obama may be selecting our governor as secretary of home land security! This lady has done nothing to protect our border and... has run up the largest deficit of any governor in the US. !!!

Doesn't this record qualify her for Washington duty? Wouldn't the new president want to surround himself with like minded people, who can talk a lot (but do little); and have experience in overspending.

Look on the bright side; when the number 2 guy steps up to fill the void, Arizona will have a new Republican Governor.



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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

TRB on Fri November 21, 2008 9:40 AM User is offlineView users profile

Karl our current governor also told our state national guard to walk away when some AK47 armed illegal drug traffickers confronted them on our side of the AZ border. For someone that claimed we needed change, all I see happening is Obama picking old Washington insiders! I will be very happy to see Janet go!!! But not at the expense of our country and our security. She and our local mayor have an open border policy and have done noting to stop illegal people entering into our state. Janet is a perfect Washington want a be! She will play party games as far as it will take her!!!

Elections have consequences!!!!!

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com


Edited: Fri November 21, 2008 at 9:41 AM by TRB

HECAT on Fri November 21, 2008 11:29 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: TRB
Elections have consequences!!!!!

I agree. It appears we have lost the fight to further intensify the strengthen our borders, to continue to detain criminals intent on killing our people, to further pursue and eliminate welfare fraud, and to hold the big business and banking industries to the same standards you and I, as small business owners must adhere. Change apparently means, to change it back to the staff and ways of the Clinton administration. Maybe Monica will even be back in the news soon.



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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

TRB on Fri November 21, 2008 4:33 PM User is offlineView users profile

Hillary for some additional change!

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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

Karl Hofmann on Sat November 22, 2008 4:25 AM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: HECAT
Quote
Originally posted by: TRB
Elections have consequences!!!!!



I agree. It appears we have lost the fight to further intensify the strengthen our borders, to continue to detain criminals intent on killing our people, to further pursue and eliminate welfare fraud, and to hold the big business and banking industries to the same standards you and I, as small business owners must adhere. Change apparently means, to change it back to the staff and ways of the Clinton administration. Maybe Monica will even be back in the news soon.


Forgive me for asking a daft question, but couldn't Mr Bush have done something about these issues in all the years that he was sitting in the big seat?


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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

HECAT on Sat November 22, 2008 7:56 AM User is offline

No, it is not what Mr. Bush or Mr. Obama can do; and this is why "its all GW's fault" has been so irrational and irritating to me. These guys are just figure heads, shall we say "punching bags" for the big political "machine". My comments are not directed at what Mr. Obama can or cannot do, but rather at the differing political agendas of the political parties that make the "machine".

We have come to know by their actions, words, and voting records that the Democrats are "liberal" thinkers and the Republicans are "conservative" thinkers; and therefore we align ourselves with one or the other according to our personal point of view. If we can't get off the fence to one side or the other there is a very small "independent" party.

So with my comments I was saying that the "regime" change from Republican to Democrat leadership party will swing the push in a different direction. Don't get me wrong, I do believe the push cannot or will not have any major effect to produce anything different. You see, I feel the "change" from Mr. Bush to Mr. Obama is about as effective as putting a different single person (figure head) at the other end of the huge stalled freight train (the machine), to push in a different direction.

The popular vote for president (not the electoral vote, that's another rant) was fairly evenly split (near 50/50) and thus the number of officials representing each political party within the "machine" will also mirror closely this result. This effectively guarantees "change" to be something that will never happen. When you watch these elected officials battle the opposing view, it becomes clear that the political infighting and public posturing is how they are getting financial support, perceived importance, internal stature, press coverage, and ultimately re-elected. The most "daft" and idiotic thing we could do is to believe that these people are going to "shoot themselves in the foot" and "change"!

So what I was trying to say in the previous post, is that for the most part (in general) this change of philosophies means...

In regards to Border control, Republican want to stop the inflow (big fences) first and then address the corrective actions. The Democrats want to focus on civil liberties and social benefits for the illegals already here, first.

In regards to Guitmo, Republicans want to detain assassins and the democrats want to talk civil liberties first.

In regards to Welfare (social programs), the Republicans would like to see tighter controls and a return on investment strategy, and the Democrats would like to just "spread the wealth" and expand these flawed (give money away) programs. I just see a decline in value and quality of services; the more government gets involved in housing, health care, and higher education.

And finally to the topic that started this post; both parties that make up the government "machine", seem to be going down the path of paying to support big banking and big auto makers with our tax dollars. These businesses have made bad business decisions to get to the point that they need this assistance; and I am personally not happy with the meddling of government into the "survival of the fittest" concept of capitalism. They have failed at the survival game, and should be allowed to slowly die while stronger and smarter businesses operating in the same industries, should be allowed to take the place they have worked for and earned.

I have loved my GM cars for years, and I am a US loyalist who has chanted "Buy American" for years. But the clear lines of American and Foreign have so clouded into the global market, that the US Dept of Commerce states that the "Made in the USA" label can be applied to products that are assembled of 80% "US product". The clarification of "US product" further clouds and ultimately makes the GM product assembled in Canada or Mexico, or assembled in the US with Chinese parts; and also the Toyotas and Kias assembled on US soil; are all "Made in the USA". So "Buy American" is a battle cry in support of Capitalism, even if it means accepting Toyota and Honda has kicked the Domestic big three's behind's and they will have to fold (game over).

Sorry for the rant this morning....

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 


Edited: Sun November 23, 2008 at 9:44 AM by HECAT

2005Equinox on Sun December 28, 2008 3:00 AM User is offline

And what would McCain have done about all of this? The same thing Bush has done.

-------------------------
2008 Chevrolet Impala LS
1981 Pontiac Bonneville


2007 Sears Craftsman Lawn Tractor


1985 Chevrolet Caprice


1986 John Deere 165 lawn tractor

HECAT on Sun December 28, 2008 8:38 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: 2005Equinox
And what would McCain have done about all of this? The same thing Bush has done.

If that is true then Obama is just going to let his wife run around in pant suits making policy, while he gets a BJ in the oval office closet.

I am not defending Bush; I just don't see the sense in the analogy that the candidates are just more of the same. I think McCain had a history of being a little more capable of challenging the system (machine) and may have proven to be a refreshing change from Bush.

Obama's plans to invest in this and that is going to have to be funded by someone. His agenda, eloquent words, and plans that got him elected; will be shot down by the Congress. "The President Proposes, and the Congress Disposes". Sure, it is accepted with a Democratic majority, that many of the policies will be supported and passed. It will be interesting to see how the people of this nation see this new President after he has been in office for a while. I don't think that many who voted for "Change" understood that it was the "Change" in their pocket he was going to take and invest.

Contrary to popular belief, this will not be a second coming of a "Messiah"; it will just be more of the same. Just like Bush, if you wish.


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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

HerkyJim on Sun December 28, 2008 11:37 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: Karl Hofmann
Quote
Originally posted by: HECAT
Quote

Originally posted by: TRB

Elections have consequences!!!!!







I agree. It appears we have lost the fight to further intensify the strengthen our borders, to continue to detain criminals intent on killing our people, to further pursue and eliminate welfare fraud, and to hold the big business and banking industries to the same standards you and I, as small business owners must adhere. Change apparently means, to change it back to the staff and ways of the Clinton administration. Maybe Monica will even be back in the news soon.





Forgive me for asking a daft question, but couldn't Mr Bush have done something about these issues in all the years that he was sitting in the big seat?

Not daft at all...and you'd be forgiven if it was...No George couldn't have done much about them. He tried on the issue of illegal immigration, but got nowhere. The excess money supply created by Allan Greenspan and his federal reserve Bank of the United States caused the housing asset "bubble" which is at the heart of our current economic difficulties. Also drove the auto manufacturers to build enormous "passenger vehicles"--that's what 90% of these enormous pickups are used for; usually transporting the driver only-- that people bought with the cheap money available everywhere

But the Fed is indpendent of the administration, or at least is supposed to be.

There will be calls for "sacrifice" and "investment". We can be sure that the sacrifices will not be by members of congress or public service employees unions. They will be by us ordinary taxpayers. The amount of debt that will be accumulated by all of the tinkering done so far is mind-boggling plus. WHats coming is beyond comprehension.

I'm just wondereing if the Chinese will be willing to finance us again? Maybe so, if they want to keep selling stuff to WalMart and Harbor Freight to sell to us.

Maybe you Brits can spare a few pounds to help us out? Maybe not. Seems as Tony and Gordon have gotten the Brits into a bit of a budgetary bind too. Maybe the Arabs will come to all of ours rescue with some of those petrodallars to be recycled...



Karl Hofmann on Mon December 29, 2008 6:10 AM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: HerkyJim



Maybe you Brits can spare a few pounds to help us out? Maybe not. Seems as Tony and Gordon have gotten the Brits into a bit of a budgetary bind too. Maybe the Arabs will come to all of ours rescue with some of those petrodallars to be recycled...


Jesus Christ!!!! We have only just finished paying you for the stuff that we had in WW2... Give us a chance to save a few quid before we go bailing you lot out

Yep, I'm afraid that Tony and Gordon have been a bit lax with the cash here as well, encouraging everyone to hock themselves up in credit card debt and to push the prices of houses through the roof.... I think that even a blind man on a horse could see that it wouldn't last for ever.... For many youngsters, this is their first recession and to them, it is the end of the world. This is my third, so it is all getting a bit boring now. Sure it is going to be a little tough for a while, the money is still there, you just have to dig a little deeper and get your hands dirty to get it, the easy money has gone as will a lot of high street stores, some of which have been sick for years such as Woolworths and the furniture supplier MFI.

We can either see these times as the end of the world, throw our hands up in the air in defeat or we can see this as a time to clear out the deadwood, a time to become meaner, leaner and fitter.. True it will be very hard on many but we will benefit in the long run.


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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

Voyager97 on Mon December 29, 2008 11:49 AM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: MrBillPro
Note to everybody with a car warranty. Bankruptcy can do away with your warranty also. Ask any owner of a Daewoo.

To add insult to injury, people who have bought the 'new' Tacuma / Matiz / AtoZ / Lacetti etc. are probably going to get dumped on again. They are still the 'bargain bucket' cars they always were, but now they wear the Chevrolet badge. GM owned the old Daewoo company before it went TTU, now they stick the Chevvy badge on them and hope people won't notice they are still the same as they always were.




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Vic @ Pennine AutoChill

NickD on Thu January 01, 2009 8:27 PM User is offline

Ha, was thinking about trading my 04 Cavalier for an 09 Cobalt with big rebates and a good balance on my GM card again, even a Pontiac G6, but made the bad mistake of opening the door and sitting in the drivers seat. Are they kidding? Sat on more comfortable jagged rocks than that front seat and made much shorter than the Cavalier, no support for my thighs also with an extremely uncomfortable driving position. Also didn't like the door handles, GM used that style some years ago and would fall apart.

If they are making crap like that, they can go broke for all I care, GMCard or not, that is as far as I cared to look at these things, but sure would find many more newly created problems. Didn't have to go to the dealer, they brought all these cars to our mall, told my wife today is the day to shop, 75% off on everything.

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