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Dad, please help me!!

NickD on Sun June 28, 2009 7:34 AM User is offline

Year: 2008
Make: York
Model: 2.5 Ton HVAC
Refrigerant Type: R-22

Son's AC wasn't working this year, installed last winter so the one year labor warranty is up he tells me. Components are warrantied for five years. Just told him to call his contractor. Guy shows up about two weeks ago, says he is 14 oz low on refrigerant, walks all over with a spray bottle trying to find a leak, just told my son, that averages to about 1/30th of an ounce of refrigerant loss per day, he would never find a leak that small with a spray bottle. In the meantime, guy is charging him 65 bucks per hour. Recharges the system and leaves, but promises to come back in two days, never does.

His AC is not cooling his house like last year, running almost continuously, got his model number, not using a low pressure cutout switch, my 25 year old one does have one, so he calls again. Another guy comes out, his leak is increasing, but son didn't ask him how much refrigerant he lost in the last two weeks. This guy claims they have an electronic leak detector, but is in the shop, he also brings a spray bottle. So this guy recharges the system again, but tells my son he added EZsealer to his AC, a gas that when meets moisture or air hardens to seal his leak.

When my son told me this, I hit the ceiling. I don't know what to tell him, that leak can be anywhere, just told him to tell his contractor to replace the entire system, and use small claims court if he has too. Have enough things to do. Did get on the net, other people with York systems are having the same problem, and seem EZsealer is also their answer. One guy said it only lasted two weeks.



Edited: Sun June 28, 2009 at 7:34 AM by NickD

JJM on Tue June 30, 2009 8:47 PM User is offline

Haha, so this is what I have to look forward to in my old age... if I make it.

I knew a commerical guy that could always find leaks that baffled the best of pros... didn't make a difference if the lines were inside walls, between floors... you name it, he would find them. His trick? Pressure test at around 500-1,000 (or more) PSI and listen for the unmistakable whistle.

Where other guys would have to rip everything apart, he's often able to do repairs through a nice, neat hole and never a come back.

Probably would be a good idea to pressure test all new installs before the walls and ceilings go up... certainly would save a lot of grief (and refrigerant) down the line.

Joe

NickD on Wed July 01, 2009 6:26 AM User is offline

Checked my step daughters 98 ZX2 yesterday, static pressure in her AC system was only 10 psi, never was recharged the five years we had this car. Thought that car used screw on fittings, but some kind of quick coupler, not like the kind on the 90 Thunderbird that Thank God, is gone. Compressor is really buried, but visually checked the entire system for oil leaks, all was dry.

Was going to top it off, least it had positive pressure, but it started to rain, also was only 55*F yesterday. If those O rings are bad, I don't know what I will do, it looks impossible. Plus my right hand needs surgery. Took me darn near a full day to change the water pump on that thing when my hand was good.

Do remember, when you get those couplers nice and clean, they slip together so easily, but after in a car for eleven years, not so easy to take apart.

Where I do have a bit of hope, is both her low and high side caps were ready to fall off, good spot to bleed off some refrigerant. Would like that car to last another three years until she finishes college. That is also kind of a steep bill. Kids are expensive, but hey, we get a 3,500 buck IRS deduction with her, so don't have to pay taxes, (FICA of course) on that amount.

Edited: Wed July 01, 2009 at 7:54 AM by NickD

NickD on Fri July 10, 2009 10:50 AM User is offline

At the insistence of my daughter, topped off her car in 50*F weather with R-134a, must be pretty good because was extremely close when the temps hit 80. Just told her I made an educated guess, she said, a very good educated guess. She had to drive down to Milwaukee where it was much warmer, AC cooled fine. I just checked out for oil leaks, couldn't find any, but did dig out my leak detector. Claims to be sensitive to a 1/2 ounce per year, it's a Snap-On that I had for years.

So my son drags me over to his home, they soldered the lines to the outside unit, found slow leaks in three joints, just commented, I wouldn't pass a solder joint like that on a water pipe. Removed the top cover and condenser fan to check around the compressor and condenser, leak detector was quiet. When inside, evaporator lines were also soldered, but a much neater job, just commented, easier to solder standing up then on your hands and knees, detector was quiet. Then removed the cover from the air handler, detector went crazy. It's York, maybe my memory is bad, but never recall seeing so many soldered joints in there, rather than running a continuous loop, had dozens of U copper tubing soldered in straight piece of tubing that ran through the fins.

Just told my son, using a leak detector is more of an art than a science, what I didn't bring was my gauges to verify the link, but from experience, he needs a new evaporator, from only be a little over a year old, sure saw lots of corrosion, making crap these days.

Well anyway, it's up to my son now, told him I won't be around forever, something I don't like to think about, but get them to replace that evaporator with a good one. He could only talk about the other problems other people in his neighborhood are having, and nothing more fun than dealing with a BSing contractor, man those guys can BS, but I still have a stronger voice than most of them.

MikeH on Sat July 11, 2009 2:49 PM User is offline

Hey, Nick, my last house had a York. Our AC guy, also a friend, told me that Yorks were an A-Coil nightmare waiting to happen. We finally replaced the unit because of the constant cost to recharge.

NickD on Sun July 12, 2009 9:17 AM User is offline

Seem to have verified that about the York by doing a google search on the subject. Question is what to do about it, terrible when you get a mortgage to pay for this crap.

MikeH on Tue July 14, 2009 11:04 AM User is offline

I went back and looked at the bill. Yikes, I hadn't remembered costing that much. But back then, I had many more $$$ to piss away.
Anyway, 2 units, 1 up and 1 down, 5 ton and 3 ton, inside and outside, heat pumps, Carrier, total cost $4630. Heating and cooling costs cut about in half from $800 in August to about $400.

NickD on Wed July 15, 2009 6:47 AM User is offline

Probably shouldn't complain then about my natural gas bill in January with our sub zero weather, but that sub zero weather extended from October to March these last couple of years plus the rates have more than doubled. Turning out to be a 300 a buck month new, but the temperature rise in the home is close to 100*F.

My bills that just came in for last month, natural gas dropped to 18 bucks, hot water heater, but my electrical bill increased by 20 bucks with the AC on 24/7, that would have been ten bucks a couple of years ago, those rates also doubled.

Heard about many people paying over 500 bucks a month down south for AC usage, how can they afford that? Even a friend that has a natural gas AC system.

2005Equinox on Thu July 16, 2009 4:02 AM User is offline

I always thought York was supposed to be such a good brand? Or am I thinking of the compressors Chrysler Corp used to use in their cars? I know Carrier is and I have no problems or complaints about the Trane thats in my house. The Trane unit in the old house was 16 years old when the neighbor took it out to put in his(They tore our old house down so we sold quite a lot of things to him Trane furnace too) and it still works like new as of a few weeks ago. I dont think in that 16 years they had to ever add an ounce of R-22. Our new Trane is R-410 and so far so good.

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2008 Chevrolet Impala LS
1981 Pontiac Bonneville


2007 Sears Craftsman Lawn Tractor


1985 Chevrolet Caprice


1986 John Deere 165 lawn tractor

Karl Hofmann on Thu July 16, 2009 4:44 AM User is offlineView users profile

I had always thought the same as Equinox about York..... It seems like good no nonsense basic kit but clearly I'm mistaken. I'll stick to fitting Sanyo and Hitachi.

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

NickD on Thu July 16, 2009 7:28 AM User is offline

I never related York MVAC compressors to York HVAC systems, really don't know if it's the same company or not. In my son's York evaporator, are using copper tubes, but they are straight tubes with copper U's soldered in, it's that soldering that is showing the leaks, didn't count them, but at least 60 solder joints. And they should have used a plated steel plate that holds all those horizontal copper tubes, you know that get wet, it all rusty already. Contractor also soldered the lines to the evaporator and outside unit, probably would be okay if he knew how to solder.

Always did have respect for Hitachi components, but wasn't aware they were making HVAC systems, I hear American Standard is good, but never have seen one. My Lennox system has been going strong for the last 25 years, just problems with the installation on not tightening the evaporator and outside unit fittings, I tightened the snot out of them, hasn't leaked in the last 23 years, compressor contactor went, that was 24 bucks, GE motors back then were good, but seeing a bunch of crap today.

Seems like all the latest HVAC brochures are marketing BS, can't really get any decent performance parameters over the operating temperatures anymore, same with motors with no temperature rise specifications, claim they are energy efficient, but not when a motor under no load is drawing 300 watts of true power, it ain't doing any work then, cheap magnetics and undersized wire. But yet they are energy efficient so they claim.

Didn't their parents teach them, it's not good to lie?

mk378 on Thu July 16, 2009 4:42 PM User is offline

Most tube and fin evaporators are made that way, since the fins are one piece it is impossible to work a one piece tube through them. So multiple tubes are bent into U shape, pushed through the fins, then joined with return bends on one end. The copper-silver-phosphorus solder is stronger than pure copper if properly applied (which is not that difficult, as it does not require fluxing.) Probably the leak is really where the tubes pass through the end plate. The tubes are actually very thin. They look like standard copper tube on the outside but they are not. If you look at where it is flared out and soldered you can see the edge of the tube, very thin. A little vibration or dissimilar metal action would make holes in them.

Edited: Thu July 16, 2009 at 4:44 PM by mk378

2005Equinox on Wed July 29, 2009 1:17 AM User is offline

If it is true that Trane makes American Standard then I can believe that American Standard is good. No trouble with the Trane A/C in the new house. The old Trane in the old house was 16 years old when the neighbor took it and put it in his house when they were going to rip it down. The neighbor says it works fine. Never had any luck with the Heil stuff we had before Trane. Both Heil things were junk.

-------------------------
2008 Chevrolet Impala LS
1981 Pontiac Bonneville


2007 Sears Craftsman Lawn Tractor


1985 Chevrolet Caprice


1986 John Deere 165 lawn tractor

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