Hi Tim, what's your policy on shipping to the UK.
I want to buy a Neutronics refrigerant identifier and prices in the US are so much cheaper that even paying freight and import duties and taxes its going to work out so much cheaper to buy from the US.
People I know are starting to ask me can I look at their A/C for them, and I have three of our own cars with A/C that I want to look after. If I load up my R/R/R machine with a blend by mistake its going to be more expensive than any outlay for an identifier to start with.
I'll give you an example. The price I got quoted from a supplier here in the UK for a Neutronics RI-2004DX was about 1250GBP + vat. That works out at 1437GBP, almost 2400USD. That's one heck of an ouch.
BTW Karl, I've booked up with Ellis training to get myself certified as well, just in case anybody decides to come knocking at my door asking to see F-gas paperwork.
Some say I'm certifiable anyway
A touchy subject at least with identifiers, but feel we are victims of the idiots running this country as well as the manufacturers. Refrigerant leakage has never been worse in my 50 year history with AC systems than it is today and has been since the mandatory switching to R-134A, GM with their single lip seals, Ford with their quick couplers, and Chrysler with their cheap evaporators. Then to compound these issues, new alternative refrigerants that mislead the public into thinking they are identical with R-12 with no FTC left to dispute these false claims. Also with R-12 systems, making it impossible to get the stuff so you have used car dealers topping a system with cheap easy to get R-134a as well as anybody. Now ID is putting a highly debatable sealer in all of their cans of R-134a, that sealer can wreck your very expensive identifier unless they have recently made changes.
It's perfectly okay for the OE's to produce crap that leaks out refrigerant, the quick couplers used with R-134a and approved by both the EPA and the SAE is a very bad joke with that large piece of neoprene that never reseats properly if pushed in, they have got to be kidding.
You may not know it, but you already have an identifier, your manifold gauges, you will see P-T's that are out of this world. And who knows, the act of attaching your gauges, may not reseat that stupid EPA approved coupler, and what's left of what little refrigerant may leak out quicker than you can run to grab your recovery machine. Hey, we don't make the rules, nor determine the components, nor the available refrigerants on the market, we are just faced with a huge mess created by our government and the industry!
It's this kind of crap that has made identifiers necessary or seemingly so. Typically, when I see a system, always check my zero first with my gauges and that is exactly what I read when I connect them. And really not even a need to even connect your gauges if the system is cooling properly.
See that NASA changed their tune several years back about ozone depletion in the south pole, contribute that to wind patterns, plus you can't have ozone without sunlight. And if we are talking about R-12, those vehicles are already 15 years old today with the average life of a vehicle estimated at 14 years if you do not live in the rust belt. Only the nuts that keep their vehicles very well maintained have crap that old. They are throwaway products.
Then there are only a handful of people that like to do a job right, with five MVAC in town, wouldn't go in any one of those with a leaking bicycle inner tube, all idiots. Or that idiot contractor that added sealer to my son's HVAC system because his spray bottle wouldn't find him the leak. If my son gets me involved, will rip out his system and slam it on their counter and request all new stuff. Already had to do that with his blower motor, they never varnished the stator windings causing them to short out that also took the motor controller with it. While that controller was fuses, already blew the hell out of that PCB before the fuses should have protected it. Fuses were still good. This is the kind of crap on the market today and we also see plenty of in in MVAC as well.
Are you trying to recover R-12? Thought you guys had to convert to R-134a if you found a minor leak.
Nick you're going to love the news that will be coming out shortly.
As for shipping to the UK. Email your address and I'll check with Neutronics as I'm sure they ship to the UK or have UK dealers for these items. I have my standard markup on these items and all other taxes and duties are not my doing and is why we really don't ship outside the US. The Canadians and Mexicans love to bitch at us like we are adding these taxes on ourselves. Heck I even had on outfit in Mexico want us to make up illegal paper work for them so they could avoid the taxes. They got pissed at us for not doing so,I guess they did not care about what would happen to us if this illegal action were to become noticed by customs.
With that said send me an email with your address and items you are looking for and I'll check into it. Also does this need to be a UK version for the power supply you all run over there?
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E-mail sent.
Nick, you can't buy R12 anymore in this country. It's illegal to charge R12 or anything CFC related, they're all banned now in Europe, so its basically R134a only.
Many shops used to sell a 'drop in blend' service, of R416a, which was a blend of R134a together with some butane/propane to mobilise the old mineral oil round and tbh, wasn't bad. When I didn't know any better, had my car charged with it once. Cooling is acceptable bearing in mind we very very rarely get hot temperatures in this country, although as I type this its hitting 31 degrees C outside, 87F approx.
When I had my car converted to R134a they put good components in. A proper parallel flow condenser in and a new drier, but no flush of old oil, just a few drops of PAG and then R134a gas. When I got my own equipment that all got recovered and the system was flushed properly. And flushed again when the main seal in the compressor failed and the system was opened out again, as well as new hoses, drier, etc so all the old oil was removed properly, and I used Emkarate 100 Ester oil this time. UK tech tested the gas in my car with his identifier so I know my gas is OK, but no knowing what other cars will bring.
I remember when my Mum's car was involved in an accident. Lost all the A/C gas cos the condenser got busted, but did they change the drier when they recharged the A/C? Did they heck.....first thing I did when we got the car back was recover, and put a new drier in. Frankly didn't have all day to pull the dash to take out the TXV to flush the system, so just took a chance on the old oil and hoped a new drier would keep the system safe. More than the insurance company did anyway.
I got another second hand car recently, that was exhibiting poor cooling, and showing signs of being undercharged, so hooked that to my machine, recovered and recharged...couldn't find a leak, but must be one somewhere. Will let the gas sit in there for a while and go over it again with my sniffer. Trouble is now not to know what crap a system is charged with, or god forbid, a sealer that's going to clog my R/R/R machine.
Will be investing in a sealer filter, and want to get an identifier, but don't want to pay 2400 when US sites list at approx 1000.
There are different certifications between the UK and the US models which increases the cost.
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It's been almost 30 years since I have designed for the European market, was a good market, because the Europeans didn't like the Japanese. But recall some kind of European standards similar to our UL we had to meet. It wasn't our manufacturing cost increased to meet those standards, maybe a couple of cents, but it was the cost of that certification that was extremely expensive. And as I recall, unlike our UL where the certification was good for the life of a given product, same products had to be recertified annually, and depending on the quantity, that had to be amortized over the unit cost.
Ironic for refrigeration and 12 volt or battery operated stuff, same here as there, but I guess they want to make a few extra quid.
Yes, CE compliance has always been much more detailed than UL.
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Found another supplier that has a much lower list price, closer to 1500USD, that I can live with, but not heard of them so have emailed the Neutronics Ireland office that Tim kindly got for me to see if they have a list of UK suppliers.
According to this article, Nuetronics makes a separate seal tester for around 150 bucks, I didn't look it up. But you indicated you were interested in identifying sealers.
Brother-in-law purchased one of those ID kits, but decided to take his vehicle to the shop so gave it to me. See it has two cans of R-134a in the box with sealer. But doesn't say anything about which kind. Could be that hard sealer that cakes up with moisture, or just a petroleum distillate based sealer to soften O rings. That charging hose with the gauge on it is sure a piece of crap, can only wonder how ID can get away with this. I wouldn't use it, guess I will just toss it in the garbage can.
Kind of remember getting these labels, but were different back then.
See where CE completely changed everything in 1985, we need something like that here is poison being put into our pet food and prescription drugs and lead based paints in childrens' toys from China.
Nick we have been offering the Neutronic's Sealer Identifier for years now.
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So I see, put junk on the market, then come out with a junk detector, LOL.
May want to double check your link.
http://www.ackits.com/pc/QUICKDETECT/Neutronics/QUICKDETECT+-+Neutronics+AC+System+Sealer+Identifier
Double http again, I always have to delete that first, is highlighted and should overwrite, but doesn't work.
Just too early in the morning for me!
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Nick we use the Neutronics sealer identifier on every vehicle in our shop. It's the first line of defense against the sealer nightmare. We also put shrink wrap covers on the service ports when we are finished with a job. It a great way to determine if someone has played with the system after it has left our shop.
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Hi Pettaw... Ellis is a good guy and knows his stuff but is a miserable git. Don't think that I'm going to rush to bother with F gas regs, it's just another bunch of workshy numpties to give my cash to. I'm already funding Gas Safe, OFTEC and NAPIT... Did my refrigerant handling cert at Ellis years ago but this particular certificate does not expire but it is not acceptible for F Gas but I'll be dammned if I'm going to shell out again..... Who is going to enforce all of this muppetry?
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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!
good one Hmph its amazing you get replies to your emails so quickly in the US. That's service for you. I sent my email in 2 days ago and still no reply on a UK supplier, so I guess I'm going to have to shell out on an international rate phone call to Ireland. Thanks for the tip Karl. They were going to run a Vehicle specific course at Ellis but they had to cancel, so instead I'm on the 2078 safe handling course, but I'm going to get extra 1 to 1 tuition on their vehicle rig. I reckon I'm pretty confident in what I'm doing tbh, having found out so much from this site and having stripped and rebuilt my entire A/C system on my old Volvo, its just in case I'm going to need certification to buy parts or R134a gas. Hopefully I won't get shouted at too much at Ellis
"Hi Pettaw... Ellis is a good guy and knows his stuff but is a miserable git."
How can Ellis be both at the same time?
"Don't think that I'm going to rush to bother with F gas regs, it's just another bunch of workshy numpties to give my cash to."
What is F gas, not fart gas, I hope.
"I'm already funding Gas Safe, OFTEC and NAPIT..."
We having the EPA is more than enough, you have all those too?
"Did my refrigerant handling cert at Ellis years ago but this particular certificate does not expire but it is not acceptible for F Gas but I'll be dammned if I'm going to shell out again..... Who is going to enforce all of this muppetry?"
Back to F Gas again?
Thought you guys in the UK spoke English?
Oh, and I live in the only state in the union that requires you to have a certificate to purchase R-134a, I got one, but cheaper for me to buy from Minnesota, Michigan, Iowa, or Illinois where no one needs a certificate. Wrote to my governor about this, told him, all he is doing is losing tax money. Major, and really a major loss of refrigerant is caused by the manufacturers for the crap they are using in MVAC. Go after them.
He did have a 90 day trial program where all the stores could sell R-134a couple of years ago, but would be damned before I would pay nine bucks for a can of R-134a. Going to Illinois tomorrow to visit family, just may buy a can of R-134a when down there.
One thing we share in common, have a government ran by idiots.
F-gas is flouridated gases, and covers all the nasties, CFC, HCFC etc etc, Can also be called ODS gases (ozone depleting substances) stupid Euro speak.......
Tim I never did get that e-mail reply, but phoned Ireland, just wait till the phone bill comes in, will be at least 10 GBP, but at least I finally got somewhere. Ntron in Ireland sell direct and at a much more reasonable price. Just organizing the paperwork, which ironically they want by email.
Aren't you guys celebrating the 4th of July weekend? If not, you should be, we relieved a great burden from you.
No, we Brits don't celebrate the 4th July at all I'm afraid. There are quite a few Americans over here though so it does get talked about a fair bit, but no public holiday.
Refrigerant identifier arrived yesterday...works perfect. Thanks guys, thanks to Tim in particular for putting me onto Ntron in Ireland. Good news. I tested it on my R134a recycled refrigerant tank and it tested 100.0% pure R134a....result
Next in the line is something to catch the sealer. A local A/C place sells the Yellow Jacket Recycle Guard system. Anybody used it before?
Edited: Sat July 11, 2009 at 6:04 PM by pettaw
Don't waste your money. Just find a place that sells shrink wrap tubing. We install the SWT on the service ports when we are finished with a job. If same vehicle comes back and they are removed. We know someone else has played with the vehicle. All bets are off at that point and we charge accordingly.
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