Automotive Air Conditioning Information Forum (Archives)

Provided by www.ACkits.com

We've updated our forums!
Click here to visit the new forum

Archive Home

Search Auto AC Forum Archives

Refrigerators Causing Serious Injuries All Over Again Pages: 12

JJM on Wed July 18, 2012 10:57 PM User is offline

Isn't it amazing how history repeats itself? It's all come full circle; In the early days, refrigerators were pretty dangerous having been charged with sulfur dioxide, methyl chloride, ammonia, and probably other nasty, albeit effective, stuff. A leak was truly a dangerous situation. These dangers lead to the development of Freon, as well as other CFC refrigerants, which were extremely safe and highly effective. A true win-win all around, that is until a bunch of anti-progress environmental extremists decided it was harming the ozone layer.

So now we go back to dangerous refrigerants, only this time it's stuff that goes boom. I'm talking about these new refrigerators charged with "Greenfreeze" the combination of isobutane and propane, which have been gaining popularity in Europe and Asia, and apparently are ending up in the states. What other reason can there be for a compressor in a refrigerator to explode:

Plainfield Woman Severely Burned After Refrigerator Explodes In Home



PLAINFIELD, N.J. (CBSNewYork) – A New Jersey woman remains hospitalized with severe burns after her refrigerator exploded.

Martiza Matea suffered burns on about 60 percent of her body after the unit’s compressor apparently exploded around 7 p.m. Tuesday, authorities said.

Matea’s two young children also sustained slight burns.

The explosion set the two-family Plainfield home on fire. The blaze lasted about 30 minutes.

A total of 11 people had to be evacuated.

The investigation is ongoing.


Apparently, that vile ice cream chain Ben & Jerry's is using refrigerators charged with Greenfreeze. And GE already got approval to use isobutane in their Monogram line of refrigerators. Looks like we need to be very careful in selecting HVACR equipment, as you no longer can trust if the device is a tiny bomb or not.

Frankly, I really don't see why the greenies are so excited about isobutane and propane, other than the fact they could end-up causing injury and death - which is something the left celebrates - after all, isn't this stuff a by-product of dirty and evil petroleum manufacturing? Clearly, this whole green movement is clearly an indication of really sick, diseased, vermin.

So the question is how many more people have to be injured or killed in the name of "saving the planet" and other asinine causes.

Joe

NickD on Fri July 20, 2012 9:29 AM User is offline

Sounds like another contradiction from the EPA where HC's are unsafe for automotive use, but considered safe for stationary use.

Feel HC's could be safe for stationary use if not compounded by all this refrigeration crap made in China. Son in his new subdivision is talking to all of his neighbors, all having the same kind of leak problems. Sure its assembled in the USAE, but made in China compressors, evaporators, condensers, blower motors, and other key electronic components.

If anything about the GE dehumidifier recall due to fires, another farce, never even opened mine, if I didn't keep a close look at that, that compressor was running red hot, doing nothing more than running up my electric bill.

So is this going to be a recall, or like this latest Cruze recall blaming of all things, the engine protective shield as the problem? So help me, living in a country ran by complete idiots. Suppose with these refrigerators, will blame lack of ventilation in these homes. Everyone will be forced to buy a big box with the refrigerator locked in it with forced ventilation.

mk378 on Fri July 20, 2012 10:50 AM User is offline

A household refrigerator is about the worst place to use HC refrigerant. The system contains just the right amount of gas to form an explosive mixture in the well-sealed cabinet from an evaporator leak. Then there is an electrical switch to ignite that mixture exactly when some hapless snack-seeker opens the door. I don't blame the government. In our "free market", insurance companies and the legions of personal injury lawyers have the power to effectively ban HC's in refrigerators.

At the least, HC refrigerant should be mixed with mercaptan skunk gas like fuel gas is. Then maybe some refrigerator leaks would be detected and treated as the same serious situation as a fuel gas leak.

Edited: Fri July 20, 2012 at 10:58 AM by mk378

NickD on Fri July 20, 2012 12:51 PM User is offline

Did a google search on "refrigerator exploded PLAINFIELD, N.J." Certainly enough of the same short article plastered all over the place. Nothing about the year, make or model of this refrigerator nor the cause of this explosion and certainly nothing about the refrigerant used. One article, the guy that wrote it thought it was the compressor.

Just searching exploding refrigerators revealed Samsung is having their share of problem, but not in the USA, mostly Europe and Africa. There they are blaming the electrical heaters during the defrost cycle. Certainly had my share of those problems over the years, but never an explosion, more like cheapass broken plastic gears in the timer, poor eaten away switch contacts, or corroded connectors.

Are they using HC's in domestic refrigerators now? Haven't shop for a new refrigerator in years. Doing some shopping for a tank of R-22, see all kinds of substitutes, equivalents, or replacements. Whichever word they like to use, just ignored those, looking for real R-22, but suspect those are HC's. Not in my AC or my friends or family AC's.

JJM on Fri July 20, 2012 9:13 PM User is offline

One would think with the multitude of problems in the world today, efforts would be concentrated on fixing those problems instead of reinventing an invention that was perfected many, many years ago over superfluous environmental concerns.

GE - a big Hussein supporter - has applied to the EPA as was approved for the use of butane in one of their refrigerator lines:

GE Brings Cleaner Home Refrigeration to the U.S. in 2010

This annoys me to no end... what is "cleaner" about a by product of petroleum manufacturing? I though the greens hated and despised petroleum manufacturing?

It seems "green" HC refrigerators have already been exploding in Europe:

Alert over new wave of exploding fridges caused by 'environmentally-friendly coolant'

Now you might ask why I care about a bunch of socialists, athesists, and cowards in Europe whose refrigerators explode? Well, I don't. What I do care about is this eco-nonsense being brought over here, and the needless injuries that will occur to unsuspecting consumers. Of course, I would have very little sympathy for anyone injured who bought these things thinking they're saving the planet... in that case, bombs away!!!

Joe

NickD on Fri July 20, 2012 9:54 PM User is offline

What could be more enjoyable than shoving up that GE dehumidifier up "Kevin Nolan, vice president of technology for GE Appliances" butt than shoving one of his refrigerators up his butt. Sideways.

mk378 on Sat July 21, 2012 3:46 PM User is offline

Where do you think that CFCs and HFCs come from? They start with HC (petroleum or natural gas), then knock off the hydrogens and replace with Cl or F.

Edited: Sat July 21, 2012 at 3:49 PM by mk378

JJM on Sun July 22, 2012 12:08 AM User is offline

Good point. So if they're all coming from the same place, why not stick with the safer and inert refrigerants in the first place?

What makes all of this so ridiculous is this won't end here. Once widespread adoption of isobutane R-600A and propane R-290 if widespread comes about, it too will be banned. As I've said in my posts here going back more than a decade: It’s likely that almost every conceivable refrigerant will cause some kind of environmental malady in the eyes of those who are wholly against American progress and improved living standards. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that R-134a was touted as the "environmentally friendly" alternative to evil R-12, and now it too is on it's way to being banned.

Of course, many will dismiss the fear of HC refrigerants that many homes and businesses are heated with natural gas and propane, and that comparison is just plain nonsense. Heating equipment is specifically designed to BURN fuel, are equipped with numerous safety devices if the fuel DOESN'T burn, and don't pump and circulate the fuel to several hundred PSI. Point is, we need to burn fuel for heat; we do not need to circulate fuel under pressure for cooling. That's kind of like saying motor vehicles have tanks of fuel, so it's no big deal to use that fuel as a solvent to wash the vehicle on a hot summer day.

Joe

NickD on Sun July 22, 2012 6:47 AM User is offline

State health department is okay in my book, was on the news this past week. With this recent heat wave, stay in your air conditioned homes, reports of at least eight related deaths. But also stated at least 25% of the homes do not have AC.

Had to get a window shaker for my stepdaughter, sharing a broken down apartment near her university with 630 bucks per month rent. That is criminal what these crooks charge. Just this last week, she needed 50 bucks for her half of the electric bill. Only using it to cool her eight by eight foot bedroom. No storm windows, just single glass panes, no weather stripping, was concerned that light AC would break that flimsy window. But that is all you get for 315 bucks a month rent. Can't wait to find out what her heating bill is.

NickD on Tue July 24, 2012 9:59 AM User is offline

Wife was shopping for clothes, so walked over to Bestbuy to laugh at the prices they want for a USB or HDMI cord. Saw three different GE refrigerators on the floor. All used R-134a refrigerant.

So wondering if the EPA in their SNAP program ever approved of HC's for refrigerators. Using propane now in practically all spray cans, they must have approved of that, certainly has enough warning labels on these cans.

But if used in refrigeration, can bet your last buck, would have to recover it.

Have to remind everybody that less than 5% of CFC's were used in all refrigeration applications. Getting rid of the rest of CFC usage already corrected that problem that never existed in the first place by 95%! Then picking on a few grams for medical inhalers? Unbelievable. Who put these idiots in charge? It wasn't me.

mk378 on Wed July 25, 2012 11:25 AM User is offline

Medical inhalers have an exemption under the Montreal Protocol, but Big Pharma lobbied heavily to separately force a move to 134a. This was good for them as it led to the end of generic inhalers. The generic companies couldn't afford to reformulate.

pippo on Fri August 10, 2012 8:01 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: JJM
Good point. So if they're all coming from the same place, why not stick with the safer and inert refrigerants in the first place?



What makes all of this so ridiculous is this won't end here. Once widespread adoption of isobutane R-600A and propane R-290 if widespread comes about, it too will be banned. As I've said in my posts here going back more than a decade: It’s likely that almost every conceivable refrigerant will cause some kind of environmental malady in the eyes of those who are wholly against American progress and improved living standards. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that R-134a was touted as the "environmentally friendly" alternative to evil R-12, and now it too is on it's way to being banned.



Of course, many will dismiss the fear of HC refrigerants that many homes and businesses are heated with natural gas and propane, and that comparison is just plain nonsense. Heating equipment is specifically designed to BURN fuel, are equipped with numerous safety devices if the fuel DOESN'T burn, and don't pump and circulate the fuel to several hundred PSI. Point is, we need to burn fuel for heat; we do not need to circulate fuel under pressure for cooling. That's kind of like saying motor vehicles have tanks of fuel, so it's no big deal to use that fuel as a solvent to wash the vehicle on a hot summer day.



Joe



-------------------------
beware of the arrival

pippo on Fri August 10, 2012 8:03 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: JJM
Good point. So if they're all coming from the same place, why not stick with the safer and inert refrigerants in the first place?





Joe

R12 and R134a are not inert. Thats why they were deemed dangerous for ozone (r12) and global warming potential (R134a). Matter of fact, those gases are quite toxic- the opposite from inert.

-------------------------
beware of the arrival

pippo on Fri August 10, 2012 8:04 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: JJM
Good point. So if they're all coming from the same place, why not stick with the safer and inert refrigerants in the first place?



What makes all of this so ridiculous is this won't end here. Once widespread adoption of isobutane R-600A and propane R-290 if widespread comes about, it too will be banned. As I've said in my posts here going back more than a decade: It’s likely that almost every conceivable refrigerant will cause some kind of environmental malady in the eyes of those who are wholly against American progress and improved living standards. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that R-134a was touted as the "environmentally friendly" alternative to evil R-12, and now it too is on it's way to being banned.



Of course, many will dismiss the fear of HC refrigerants that many homes and businesses are heated with natural gas and propane, and that comparison is just plain nonsense. Heating equipment is specifically designed to BURN fuel, are equipped with numerous safety devices if the fuel DOESN'T burn, and don't pump and circulate the fuel to several hundred PSI. Point is, we need to burn fuel for heat; we do not need to circulate fuel under pressure for cooling. That's kind of like saying motor vehicles have tanks of fuel, so it's no big deal to use that fuel as a solvent to wash the vehicle on a hot summer day.



Joe



-------------------------
beware of the arrival

pippo on Fri August 10, 2012 8:05 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: pippo
Quote
Originally posted by: JJM
Good point. So if they're all coming from the same place, why not stick with the safer and inert refrigerants in the first place?






Joe


R12 and R134a are not inert. Thats why they were deemed dangerous for ozone (r12) and global warming potential (R134a). Matter of fact, those gases are quite toxic- the opposite from inert.

-------------------------
beware of the arrival

pippo on Fri August 10, 2012 8:09 PM User is offline

theres no perfect refrigerant, despite what the OP contends/implies. I use all 3- R12, R134a, and HC's. HC's are getting a bad rap for auto - hyped up hysteria about it going BOOM. Its as dangerous as a gas tank going BOOM (which, in reality, hardly ever happens. cars exploding in crashes is mostly Hollywood effect- I know people in Hollywood, and its HARD to make a car explode!). HC's are used in many 1st world countries.



-------------------------
beware of the arrival

Edited: Fri August 10, 2012 at 8:11 PM by pippo

NickD on Thu August 16, 2012 9:06 AM User is offline

Have a rather large ammonia refrigerator in my motorhome, freezer compartment goes down to -10*F very quickly. And does this only drawing 2 amps at 120VAC or just a pilot light size flame from propane.

Try and even get close to this efficiency with any type of compressor operated refrigerant. For safety, is well vented on the back of the refrigerator.

Such a refrigerator could be made for the home if externally vented and with no compressor and all those fans, really nothing to wear out.

Many family farmers were put out of business with high property taxes and very low milk prices. Land O' Lakes took advantage of this by picking up these farms cheap and hiring illegals at less than a buck per hour to run them. Also switched to open liquid manure spreading whose key emissions is ammonia. But according to the same EPA, that ammonia doesn't hurt you and even good for you.

Just telling you the way it is.

mk378 on Sat August 18, 2012 2:04 PM User is offline

A cheap small electric refrigerator runs about 60 watts to the compressor, or 1/4 of what your RV refrigerator does. Using electricity to make low-grade heat with a resistor is a terrible proposition thermodynamically. When ammonia refrigerant is used in a large-scale plant it always implemented as a vapor compression cycle, unless free waste heat is available from some other process to drive an absorption system.

Edited: Sat August 18, 2012 at 2:08 PM by mk378

JJM on Sun August 26, 2012 10:08 PM User is offline

R-12 and R-134a are far more inert when in contact with a ignition source. That's the point. And they're also far more inert than R-764, R-40, R-717 - which ended up sickening or killing people in early refrigerators - and the prime reason R-12 was developed.

Almost any gas, whether it's relatively harmless carbon dioxide in our sodas or nitrogen used to fill tires can become "toxic" in high concentrations. And just because they were "deemed" dangerous to the environment by a bunch of backward anti-progress zealots doesn't mean they that's any more true than someone believing their favorite ball team will win the world series.

Fact is, there is ZERO reason to be reinventing the wheel.

Joe

NickD on Thu September 06, 2012 9:23 AM User is offline

Was shocked to see R-134a cans on the shelves in Wisconsin, only $9.99 plus tax for a 12 ounce can of DuPont Suva R-134a. Looked for R-12, didn't see any. They must have reversed that over twenty year law.

JJM on Sat September 15, 2012 1:13 PM User is offline

Well, it looks like here's another one:

Hero cat tips off owner to blaze



By Kerry Wills AND Erin Durkin / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Saturday, September 15, 2012, 11:52 AM

A Manhattan woman has an alert cat named Nino to thank for her speedy escape from a fire this week.

Claudia D’Argenio, 47, had taken in the black-and-white foster cat just a week-and-a-half ago at her Murray Hill apartment when the normally quiet kitty started meowing frantically at her Wednesday afternoon and wouldn’t stop.

She looked out her door and saw the apartment two doors down was on fire.

D’Argenio ran to notify the super while a neighbor called 911, and everyone was able to escape the blaze, which was sparked when a refrigerator combusted.

“I feel like he saved my life,” she said of the 4-year-old cat, which she took in temporarily to save it from being put down at a shelter.

Nino is still looking for a permanent home.

“They would be lucky to have him. He’s an awesome cat, and he’s a hero,” D’Argenio said.


Since when do refrigerators "combust" all by themselves??? I guess we're going to see more and more of this as we FOOLISHLY "go green" and other nonsense.

Wonder what the carbon footprint of the fire was versus the refrigerator?

Joe

Back to Off Topic Chat

We've updated our forums!
Click here to visit the new forum

Archive Home

Copyright © 2016 Arizona Mobile Air Inc.