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100 bucks for this! I think they saw me coming. Pages: 12

NickD on Tue September 23, 2003 2:12 PM User is offline

Year: 1993
Make: Olds
Model: Bravada
Engine Size: 4.3 L
Pressure Low: 52 psi
Pressure High: 61 psi

This is what the inside of the old fuel pump looks like, of course you have to drop the tank to change it. Someone must be on my side, I just drove this vehicle 390 miles round trip and got home with no problems.

The one brush was broken, I did not break that brush when taking it apart and it's also jammed, a tad bit more wear and I would have been parked. No warning with these things. That center hex molded in the plastic is the front bearing, wonder how much that cost? Also has a ball type check valve with a neoprene seat.

The armature is quarter size, meaning about the size of a US minted quarter, the commutators at the end are worn about 1/16" deep, practically no metal left. This is a 60 psi pump and runs continuously when ever the engine is running. It's a permanent magnet motor and that armature draws 4 amperes under no load. Jacks up to about twice that under load or about 100 watts. Lots of heat for such a small armature.

I did not brother to take the pump apart, but can see some plastic impellers that are driven by a flat in the shaft, surprise that tiny 1/8" diameter flat doesn't drill a round hole in that plastic impeller, there is 60 psi of pressure on it.

The gas flow in at the impellers at the bottom of the pump past the sparking brushes and commutator but since there shouldn't be any air in there, must be the reason why it doesn't blow up. The circulating gas is the only thing that cools this pump, it gets quite hot when holding the assembly in your hand.

Crazy, now I will always be worried about fuel pumps as well.




Edited: Tue February 17, 2004 at 12:03 PM by NickD

Bigchris on Tue September 23, 2003 7:33 PM User is offline

Shucks Nick, trim up that groove in the commutator, make a new brush and it'd probably run for another 10 years. Why don't you build a submarine model around it?

NickD on Tue September 23, 2003 8:16 PM User is offline

Surprise for us, this is not the original pump, and in all fairness, it's not a Delco, some aftermarket brand, we did get 47K miles from it, but can only say the original lasted somewhere between 0 and 82K miles.

Mitch on Wed September 24, 2003 11:40 AM User is offline

That is why it is a good idea not to run your tank less than 1/4. The immersion of the pump keeps it cooler and hopefully allows it to last longer.

This is another hidden cost of the performance we are getting from the sophisticated FI systems. Save on gas cost, but make it up and possibly more on expensive replacement parts.

bohica2xo on Wed September 24, 2003 3:48 PM User is offline

I have always maintained that running on fumes was a bad plan with an in-tank pump. My nephew (college student) was forever running on empty, just putting a few dollars in when it was a necessity - I told him it would toast his fuel pump. After 6 months of this treatment, the fuel pump quit ('93 T Bird), and I told him that the reason was his fueling habits - pointing out the fact that my Ranger has virtually the same pump, and was still good after 250,000 miles. He told me I was wrong, that it should work regardless of fuel level, etc. The replacement pump (installed by a Ford dealer) lasted a little over a year - 21,000 miles to be precise. Now he believes me, so he never lets the tank get below 1/4 - and you can no longer hear the pump while driving....

If you can hear the fuel pump in the driver's seat, raise the fuel level. It depends on the vehicle, but someplace between 1/8 of a tank and 1/3 of a tank, the pump becomes exposed, and the only cooling it sees is the fuel flowing through it

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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

Karl Hofmann on Wed September 24, 2003 4:17 PM User is offlineView users profile

LOL Employ a young person now whilst they still know everything!

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

NickD on Thu September 25, 2003 12:14 AM User is offline

I feel a lot dumber today than when I was younger (last week?). Ha, you think you know all about cars because you can find the gas pedal.

Karl Hofmann on Thu September 25, 2003 4:57 AM User is offlineView users profile

The older one gets, the more one learns, the more one realises how little one knows!

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

Bigchris on Thu September 25, 2003 7:44 PM User is offline

It's not a linear thing though. Parents start out looking smart and then at some point drift toward cluelessness and then suddenly get smarter and smarter as the years go by.

FrankD. on Fri September 26, 2003 12:20 AM User is offline

Hi Nick have you decided what brand pump to replace it with ?? I am sure you know there is a up grade for the filter sock to prevent it from sucking flat.

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FrankD.

Edited: Fri September 26, 2003 at 2:14 AM by FrankD.

NickD on Fri September 26, 2003 8:34 AM User is offline

Frank, I just went with an AC Delco pump with a new strainer and a pulsator, dropping the tank is not a fun project, darn pulsator was another $41.00 and not even sure what it is for as the shop manual doesn't show one and my DeVille doesn't have one.

The instructions that came with the pump simply said if you have a pulsator use it, if not, they supplied a short piece of hose with the pump with clamps. The pulsator just slips on and that is the only thing that holds the pump in place. The old pulsator had cracks in the grommets so didn't want to use that. My only thought was this pulsator is more of a damper that if not installed could ruin that rather expensive new fuel regulator so why fool with it.

I have a decent dealer in town for parts, got the pump for $94.00, carparts and expressauto with all of their advertising wanted $116.00 for a Delco pump plus shipping and waiting. Carquest and NAPA in town wanted $110.00 for who knows what? The dealers in town are friendly and answer some questions, but paying $72.00 per hour seems a bit steep for a town that pays minimum wage for most jobs.

FrankD. on Fri September 26, 2003 9:56 PM User is offline

Hay i found one link on pumps but lost the one with part numbers. Hope it is ok to post links here. I have never ordered from eather place just something to check out.
http://www.jaysgn.com/bolton2.html#walbro



http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/



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FrankD.

GM Tech on Fri September 26, 2003 9:57 PM User is offline

I just bought an AC Delco fuel pump from autozone- for $64 dealer wanted $82 with all my employee discounts! So I went with the autozone pump- kept the old pulsator- put in new sock - on 86 Park Ave........

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The number one A/C diagnostic tool there is- is to know how much refrigerant is in the system- this can only be done by recovering and weighing the refrigerant!!
Just a thought.... 65% of A/C failures in my 3200 car diagnostic database (GM vehicles) are due to loss of refrigerant due to a leak......

k5guy on Fri September 26, 2003 11:21 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: Mitch
That is why it is a good idea not to run your tank less than 1/4. The immersion of the pump keeps it cooler and hopefully allows it to last longer.

Crawling under my truck today (chasing a lost bolt), I found the electric fuel pump mounted on the frame rail. So, do I need to drive faster to keep it cool? (Really officer, I was just cooling my fuel pump. I really didn't mean to do 60 in that 45....)




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Anonymous on Sat September 27, 2003 9:41 AM User is offline

I have also seen MANY fuel pump failures on many differenr vehicles, fuel level is undoubtably critical. In my experience in replacing them, O.E has always been the way to go for the most part, I have been told by reps of aftermarket manufacturers that they do not build their pumps to the same tolerances as O.E. to allow for sediment that accumulates in the tank to pass through! A bunch of B.S. I believe, they simply make an inferior product.. Unfortunately, I have also seen problems right off the shelf from a Big 3 manufacturer A * D****, seems they were either omitting the presure relief valve in the pump or installing it backwards! The result was several tank R&R's and a good chunk of time diagnosing a defective product, including other units on the shelf we inpected, all with the same problem. Conversation with the district rep to resolve this was another waste of time, not only did he not seem to understand the problem, they never followed up on it with me despite assurances to resolve it. Finding replacement parts that actually work is becoming almost impossible, regardless of manufacturer, if you find something that works for you..stick with it,hopefully it will not get out sourced to some 3rd world country for production.

Mitch on Sat September 27, 2003 10:07 AM User is offline

There are fuel pumps mounted outside the tank and in my limited experience they seem to last longer than the in-tank units. Either they automatically get better cooling than an exposed in-tank unit or they are designed a little differently.

A lot of fuel tanks are already too small and filling them at 1/4 cuts into a short driving range. There is a trend with the Japanese cars to increase fuel capacity. Altima is 20 gals and Toyota Solara is 18.5 gals.

NickD on Sat September 27, 2003 10:13 AM User is offline

Autozone sells a genuine AC Delco pump for $64.00? To they sell namebrand parts? If I want to drive 90 miles I can find an Autozone store. Here we just have Carquest and NAPA with all private labled boxes, no telling what's in there.

It's much easier to drop the tank now that all the fittings are cleaned with anti-seize, but was miserable the first time, but there is still no way of getting the gas out of that tank if the fuel pump is bad. The baffles block dropping in a hose with a pump in it. So driving with a full tank of gas may lengthen the life of the pump, but if the pump goes, try to drop a 140 pound tank with the filler removed without getting one hell of a gasoline shower.

Gas never brother me before, this new stuff is worse than acid and I already got severe burns from it. Maybe I am getting old, maybe they are putting acid in the tank now. haven't' figured that out yet.

JJM on Sat September 27, 2003 1:13 PM User is offline

It's funny how electric fuel pumps die and immediate death, but they do seem to warn you of their impending demise by becoming more "vocal." If you don't heed their warning, you'll get stuck. New pumps are often difficult to hear during operating, but when they're on their way out, they often whine so loudly you can hear them even while driving at 30 MPH.

Mine first gave out at 152,000 miles, and there’s a funny story to go along with it, because a series of events lead me to believe I blew my engine. You see, at that time, my water pump (original) was shot, and not having time to replace it, I drove around with a case of anti-freeze, refilling as the low coolant light illuminated. The leak grew worse and worse to the point I was adding a gallon of coolant a day. Then one night as I was driving home, the "low coolant" light came on, and shortly thereafter the temperature gauge started rising rapidly followed by the "check gauge" light coming on. By that time, the temperature gauge was pinned, so I immediately pulled up to a local gas station to get some coolant. I filled the reservoir, allowing the engine to cool a bit so I could add coolant to the radiator as well. The radiator was almost empty, so I filled it as well. Figuring I’m ready to go, I try to start the engine. It would crank, slowly, occasionally almost firing-up, then it would just crank slower and slower with no life whatsoever until the battery discharged. Yep, I said to myself, I blew my engine because of my damn stupidly in not promptly replacing a $75 water pump! I then walked home pondering what an idiot I was.

The following day I returned with a spare battery, and my tools. I figured before having it towed to the bone yard, let me confirm the engine was indeed blown. I pulled the spark plugs and ran a compression test. Amazingly there was 165-180 PSI on all the cylinders! Hmmm, I thought the engine still had compression, so why the heck doesn’t it start then? My HEI tester showed spark off all the ignition wires, so it’s got ignition. Then it dawned on me, each time I turned the ignition on, I didn’t hear that loud whine from the fuel pump. So I checked the relay and power and everything was fine, so it had to be the fuel pump or fuel pump wiring. I arranged for a tow truck, so I could check it out thoroughly at home.

The following day I dropped the tank and pulled the pump. After air drying the pump, I hot wired it and it was deader then dead. I went to the dealer, and $154 ($179 list) later, I got my pump/sender unit. I also figured at 152,000 miles it would be a good time to give it its FIRST tune-up, so I got all the tune-up parts as well, add it on to my bill! Before I put the pump in the tank, I connected it to the vehicle harness and hit the ignition, and it ran up nicely. The pump was indeed the problem! But who would’ve thought? When you overheat a car that bad, and then it doesn’t start, you assume you blew the engine.

At 253,000 miles, she's still going, as is the pump and the 152,000 mile tune-up!

Joe

Anonymous on Tue October 21, 2003 10:18 PM User is offline

JJ...you still have the Cat? 253k? I am impressed! My wife wants to keep her Bonneville for a few more years (181k now) runs pretty good...bottom of the car is clean and shiny not a speck of rust anywhere. Speaking of floors...did you get the floors replaced in yours?

JEL on Wed October 22, 2003 9:57 AM User is offline

Quote
Autozone sells a genuine AC Delco pump for $64.00? To they sell namebrand parts? If I want to drive 90 miles I can find an Autozone store. Here we just have Carquest and NAPA with all private labled boxes, no telling what's in there.

Nick, autozone (as well as many other sources) has a web site from which you can shop Autozone so you won't need to drive the 90 miles. Let UPS do the driving instead.

Jim

NickD on Wed October 22, 2003 10:22 AM User is offline

We are getting an AutoZone store in town now, right across the street from Carquest, building a brand new building. The chains killed the independents, now the chains will kill each other. Progress?

NickD on Tue February 17, 2004 12:07 PM User is offline

There are the pictures again but in Tim's server.

Why can't I open:

http://www.ackits.com/forumimages/

Just to see if my picture was uploaded properly. Of course, I had to edit the image location and just over wrote the old one to http://www.ackits.com/forumimages/ leaving everything else the same.

MrBillPro on Tue February 17, 2004 12:14 PM User is offlineView users profile

Nick you using Linux! i can open them just fine.

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Don't take life seriously... Its not permanent.

MrBillPro on Tue February 17, 2004 12:19 PM User is offlineView users profile

Don't tear apart you PC yet Nick "just kidding" i can't open them either.

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Don't take life seriously... Its not permanent.

TRB on Tue February 17, 2004 12:29 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: NickD
There are the pictures again but in Tim's server.



Why can't I open:



http://www.ackits.com/forumimages/



Just to see if my picture was uploaded properly. Of course, I had to edit the image location and just over wrote the old one to http://www.ackits.com/forumimages/ leaving everything else the same.


Because you have to add the name of the file you saved to the address. Correct path is http://www.ackits.com/forumimages/bavfuel.jpg

Which when inserted as a image using the image icon looks like.





I do my best to make it easy for you but I can't be everywhere typing it in for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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