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RANT- Cheap and easy air conditioning repairs by K5Guy Pages: 12

k5guy on Thu November 13, 2003 4:49 PM User is offline

This a rant I've been working on for the tips and procedures forum. Would you like to help me review it and improve it?

Cheap and easy air conditioning repairs by K5Guy

Here at the ACKits forum, we get asked by many to find a cheap and easy way to fix an air conditioning system. So, here goes. Pay attention.

Your air conditioning system is a closed loop pressurized system, with about 50-70 psi with the engine off, and about 30-250 psi with the air conditioning running. To put this into perspective, it only takes 7 psi to break any bone in the human body.

It contains a refrigerant that under pressure and combined with lubricating oils, is extremely flammable. Consider that the average working temperature of a car hood with the engine at idle is 180 degrees farenheit.

If you are starting to get the idea that your benign air conditioning system sounds like a potential bomb, you are on the right track. So, do you want to put the lowest quality parts in your moving bomb, or do you want something that is going to operate safely?

Leak sealants, aka stop leak, is a wonderful product. It sure does stop those leaks. The industry is finding that it also stops up your system, and it voids the warranty on any air conditioning parts that are under your hood.

Junkyard replacement air conditioning parts are a real bargain. They come with little or no warranty. They also let you practice at replacing them again and again. You end up very proficient at evacuating and recharging your AC system, which is a good thing.

Don't spend good money on your air conditioning tools. After all, who needs them anyway? If the car manufacturer or your car dealer wanted you to have them, they would have put a set in your car for you, wouldn't they? The dealer would rather hear you tell them that you think it's broken as opposed to you telling them that the high side dropped from 225 psi to 150 psi in the last week.


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TRB on Thu November 13, 2003 8:28 PM User is offlineView users profile

Just my opinion but I would take the sting out of it a little. Though we answer the same question many times it is the first time for many of the posters. I like the issues being brought up and think it may not hurt to go a little further on the magic products and wrecking yard parts. But than again a wrecking yard item may be better than a Four Seasons remanufactured compressor!!!

Those are just some of my thoughts for what they are worth. I do appreciate the effort!!!!

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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

NickD on Fri November 14, 2003 8:11 AM User is offline

A topic on AC safety may be in order if that is the subject of conversation, ha, I prefer simply to say to refer to the vehicles shop manual for safety considerations as this can get legally complicated. Static pressures can easily reach for 230 psi and depending on whose pouring the refrigerant in, operating pressures of over 600 psi can be encountered depending on whether the safety cutoff's are working or not. In mad attempts to get the system working, these safety devices may have been bypassed.

If ID says it's okay to charge with a dimestore variety low pressure only gangue, they are accepting the liability for that statement, but I have yet to hear of any law suits against them. As well as destroying a system by not properly meeting all the R-134a compatibility requirements. More crazy yet is using a supposingly R-12 conversion kit in a stock R-134a system.

Most of those kinds of questions come here, AFTER the fact as the kits didn't work, and the person asking the question already has been kicked down, no need to kick a guy when he is down though that quite common if you are an auto accident victim.

Most of the people I met at therapy have the same story in a work related incident, they don't find people trying to help, but people trying to capitalize on their grief, it's much better not to have an accident or to be killed by it, least you don't have to lay their while they are picking your bones dry and be conscious of it. And it's all legal.

aussiedevil on Fri November 14, 2003 8:59 AM User is offlineView users profile

In reality it comes down to this . The service that is provided here is exceptional . All the time that is put in , the wealth of knowledge on offer , the up keep of this forum all for no charge . A group of techs with a common interest (If it was only a job then you wouldn't be contributing to the forum) and i suppose a love for what they do . inevitably though you end up having to deal with the public and it seem that they are very curious . You may be asked the same questions over and over again , its not because they are all stupid they just don't understand .

The lawyer asking you how to flush out a system for the 3rd time in as many days isn't really an idiot ??? he's just curious and wants to have a go him self . At the end of the day all you can do is be consistent in your responses , try to keep him safe and know that if you ever need legal advice he will look after you for about $150 an hour billed by the 1/4 .

I believe in each to his own to his own but sometimes just like a child they will have to fall flat on their face before they will listen to what you have told them 100 times over . You can't tell my 4 year old anything ither .

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M.J.W

k5guy on Fri November 14, 2003 10:03 AM User is offline

Tim- I was trying to use humor, but I think it came across wrong. I'll see if I can clean it up some.

Nick and Aussie- Thanks for your comments.

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Bigchris on Fri November 14, 2003 9:20 PM User is offline

Humor, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder. I suspect that much of your audience is well beyond seeing humor in their situation by the time they read your piece. Desperation is more likely, and there is a real risk that they will perceive you as laughing at them, at their expense, rather than at the situation.

I understand your wanting to keep it light and interesting rather than dry and dull, but too often it is already too late for anything but a funeral, and humor is a hard sell in that situation. Better I think to go with an informative "Here's Why We Distrust Fix In A Can" and let it go at that.

BTW, here are some instructions from an ID R134a Recharge Kit. Model HGT-134A
"EXPLANATION OF PRESSURE GAUGE READINGS"
"Low side reading is low and High side reading is low. Usually indicates a low refrigerant charge. Begin by adding 1 can of R134a and take another reading."

Maybe a definition of "death kits" as anything with the ID brand is needed.

k5guy on Sat November 15, 2003 12:03 AM User is offline

Hey Chris. I agree with you. I do want to use some humor, because even if the AC isn't working, it's not the end of the world as we know it. It can be fixed, and it's a matter of what it will cost to make it right. Sometimes putting it in perspective can help things. I know when I first came here I was mad as a hornet's nest at the dealer that quoted me $1000 bucks to fix the AC. Thanks to them, and you guys, I learned how to fix it myself.

My concern about mentioning ID is that we may invite a lawsuit. They have a lot more resources than I do, and I don't want to duke it out in court. If we just say that we have a preference or an informed opinion for other brands, we steer clear of them. I'm no sissy about it, but it's not worth a crap shoot in what we call a judicial system.


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Bigchris on Sat November 15, 2003 1:53 AM User is offline

You're dead right about the lawsuit issue. I wouldn't really name ID but every product they make seems to have a gotcha attached. It should be possible to discuss each product generically and point out those "gotchas". Whether it's adding too much refrigerant at once or trying to service a system with only one gauge (of dubious accuracy) or being on the lookout for sealants and "seal conditioners", those "cliffs" need to be brought to the attention of the K-mart shoppers.

NickD on Sat November 15, 2003 7:38 AM User is offline

To my recollection, no one from the EPA, ID, or Four Seasons ever appeared on these boards. It would be nice if they did to answer questions. I posted the ID kit instructions some time ago with a critique, ha, it wasn't that long of a post as their instructions were extremely brief.

Purchase any product today and you get at least a half a dozen pages of safety related information and in ten different languages, and somewhere buried in these long manuals are the instructions for using the appliance, like plugging it in and turning it on. The troubleshooting section is likewise neat.

Unit doesn't work.

Is it plugged in? Plug something else in the same outlet and see if that works.
Is it turned on? Units without a power switch don't have to be turned on.

If this doesn't solve your problems return this product with your warranty card, original sales receipt to the following Asian address, tripple packed with a international money order enclosed for $100.00 to cover handling and returned shipping cost. Please wait 91 days for processing, but note your warranty is only good for 90 days.

Bigchris on Sat November 15, 2003 11:00 AM User is offline

So true! And then there's that part where they agree to exchange your brand new nonfunctional unit with a fully functional used unit.

k5guy on Sat November 15, 2003 2:24 PM User is offline

To be perfectly fair, ID makes a set of real manifold gauges. They have 2 dials and they have the valves. And they sell replacement hoses too. Where I am going with this is that when I needed a set of hoses to butcher so I could use my R12 gauges with R134a, and my R134a gauges with R12, they were the perfect fit. Add a couple of barb fittings and hose clamps from home depot, and there you go.

One problem that I have with mentioning ID, Nick is that this forum is searchable via Google and other search engines. They can find us if they want to.


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TRB on Sat November 15, 2003 2:28 PM User is offlineView users profile

Why not just use the R12 to R134a adaptors for $ 25.00?

http://www.ackits.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=R134acouplers

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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

k5guy on Sat November 15, 2003 2:31 PM User is offline

If I had planned it out ahead of time, I would have. I needed to tie into a vacuum pump for a relative that only had R12 fittings.

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NickD on Mon November 17, 2003 7:02 AM User is offline

My point with the so called death kit instructions that I left out, is they do not provide any safety information, maybe they do now, I haven't looked for the last couple of years or so.

To satisfied the EPA requirements they do recommend taking your vehicle to shop to have your system evacuated, but evacuate, what? they do not caution that you may have an erratic electrical failure and many people have assumed their AC is not working because it's low on "freon" or whatever that stuff is inside the system. This has led to hundreds of post where people have blown up their systems by overcharging. It's all not clear that this is supposingly a conversion kit and many have used these kits in a stock R-134a system. Their low side pressure gauge is more of a recent addition as earlier, they were just charging either by guess or weight, mostly guess as many vehicles don't have the weight label posted or it long fell off.

The only way this kit can have merit is to make a perfectly working R-12 system, "environmentally friendly" by properly replacing nasty "ozone depleting R-12" with "nasty global warming R-134a", ID also sells flushing cans and POE for those that want to do a better job, but still seem to leave out other compatibility and performance issues.

A few years ago, it seems like the EPA and ID were working hand in hand to get rid of R-12, for the more technically adept, this conversion process seemed ludicrous at the least, stupid at the most with the statement that the existing mineral oil in the system would find a place to hide. Both the EPA and ID have managed to destroy many a good R-12 system to make the repairs exceed the value of many cars, to get those cars off the road, this they have succeeded in. The EPA has been backing off from their previous recommendations over the last few years. Seems those recommendations have been taken off the net along with new links by the EPA.

The EPA did have a site where shops could post the proper way to convert certain vehicles, for the most part, the recommendations were nebulous and based more on trial and error than hard facts.

GM was going to provide the proper information for converting many vehicles in a let's save the ozone layer and work together manner, but just issued a TSB about dumping in POE on top of the mineral oil kind of saying this is too much unprofitable work. Ha, a long as an AC cools 20*F lower than the ambient, it's okay kind of thing.

All in all, one big mess that time will cure as the R-12 vehicles wear out by other causes.

Stevo30 on Mon November 17, 2003 7:02 PM User is offline

I think Nick has an excellent suggestion for including strong language concerning safety.

My biggest concern about the uni-gauge kits is that they really mislead the inexperienced user (and who else buys them???) into thinking that the low side pressure is all that is important. It's one thing to mess up your system. It's quite a lot more serious doing yourself bodily harm. Most of you pros know that without both high and low readings, you are not only leaving out half of the performance data on your system, you are potentially exposing yourself to some extremely dangerous pressures and temperatures. P's and T's that can hurt or even kill you. Without that high side gauge, you will have absolutely no idea of whether you are slightly undercharged or dangerously overcharged. And you know how quickly the pressures head to the moon when you've got a blockage, an overcharge, or inadequate condensor airflow. I don't like trusting my welfare to a HPCO that might be jumped out or maybe not even be there.

I had an interesting experience recently that reminded me of the reason you need to be so careful about safety in doing even routine MVAC service work. I was finishing up the install of a heat/cool/defrost system into a 1940 Buick. I was doing the final connections and juicing the system after the owner and a buddy of his had done the sheet metal, electrical, and hose crimping work. I did a careful visual inspection of the system, fixed a bunch of electrical problems, and pronounced it good to go. I evacuated the system, leak checked it, and then charged it with 2lb of precious R-12. We started the system and I was looking down into the engine room watching for signs of trouble. I had just swung my eyes around to my charging station when there was a blast from the system. It was just like a 12 gauge going off by my ear. I was covered with oil and there was a hose whipping around spraying hot oil and R-12 vapor all around me. Just by the luck of the Gods, I was wearing a long sleeve shirt and my glasses (I didn't always do that. I do now...) and had no damage other than my being oil soaked and scared to death. If it had happened 10 seconds earlier, I would have been looking right down at the blown hose. Luckily, all it cost him was $65 worth of oil and refrigerant plus the day or so cleaning up the oil that went everywhere. I took care of cleaning out my own shorts...

What happened is that the guy who crimped the hoses (beadlok) didn't understand why they put that little hole in the base of crimp ferrule. He had slipped when crimping the discharge hose and only got about 1/4" of the hose into the fitting. It was just enough that it didn't leak during my checkout, but sure let go once the system came on line and the discharge pressure got up to about 150lb. I saw what looked like a perfect crimp, but couldn't see the witness hole due to it being on the bottom side of the fitting. That little oversight could have cost me my vision. Needless to say, I'm now a lot more careful about checking both my own work as well as anyone else's that work on my systems.

The systems are challenging for pros, but, as in aviation, "unforgiving of carelessness and inexperience".

So, I would strongly suggest that if you do put together a tips and tricks note, you include as many safety tips and suggestions as you can. It's just scarey to me to read the questions from some of the rookies on this site and think that they are blindly charging their systems with only a uni-gauge. Without full guage readings to guide them or experience to know when they are treading onto dangerous ground. I've seen way too many systems heading north of 400psi while I'm making the mad dash for the ignition key. It would be a silly reason to lose your life or vision, IMHO...

My #1 suggestion: Pay the $75 for a decent set of gauges or leave the work to someone who can. Then read all you can on how your system works before turning your first wrench. Wear your safety goggles when you are moving refrigerant and STOP if anything looks the least unusual. Your safety and health is worth more than you could possibly save by cutting corners.

For those of you who decide to do the work yourself, have fun and please work safe...

Just my $0.02 worth!


Stevo30

iceman2555 on Tue November 18, 2003 4:51 PM User is offlineView users profile

There is a reason that my shop has some very expensive equipment....a refrigerant identifier....leak detector....excellent vacuum pump...expensive gauges....temp testing tools.....recovery recharge equipment...etc. This is what it takes to do the modern A/C repair properly. Even with all the 'toys' it takes one other thing to make the system work...and work properly....THE FIRST TIME. One must have a basic understanding of the A/C system. Many would be surprised at the number of ASE CERTIFIED TECHS that I speak with each year that do not understand how a system works. If one gets a understanding of basic operation and theory....one can repair anything....without this knowledge then one becomes a "PARTS REPLACER". Unfortunately what also happens is that harm can also arise from not understanding what is happening in the system. Instructions and warnings of personal harm fall on deft ears. Very few people will read instructions. A compressor arrives in box sealed in shrink wrap.....large letters...stating that the compressor is DRY and yet I see abused returns each week that are returned....locked up...burned clutches....not pumping.....and upon inspection...not ONE DROP OF LUBRICANT is in the compressor. Could ya believe it !!!!
Unfortunately most DIYer take the attitude that 'Hey yesterday I changed my air filter...today...Im gonna change my compressor....retro fit it to the newest universal refrigerant that promises 0 degree vents. Then wonder why in the heck that the compressor failed.....but then my $2.00 pressure gauge was in the green.....what happened? AwwwwWell.....they will give me a new compressor any way......maybe ...perhaps....hopefully this one will work......LOL.
It is a small wonder more people are not hurt with 134a and the suicide kits on the markets. Hopefully that part of the EPA regulation will be cured in the near future and 134a will also require a 609 cert. From the last EPA meeting....this may be closer than we know.


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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

NickD on Tue November 18, 2003 5:44 PM User is offline

Iceman, what's in the 609 certificate test that assures the holder knows anything about the principles of AC?

Anonymous on Tue November 18, 2003 6:34 PM User is offline

I agree with you, Ice. Unfortunately... Regulation is so obnoxious. It's like using a sledge hammer to kill flies. And it raises the costs and hassles for the rest of us just to protect fools from themselves.

Frankly, I've gotten some pretty nice projects to do after a DIYer has kacked compressor #2 and the Boys won't give him another freebie. Nothing seems to give them religion like hitting them in the pocket book. As hard as it is to watch a guy doing what you know will cost him his system, sometimes the pain is what it takes to learn the lesson.

My issue with the kits is that they aren't even giving the average guy a fighting chance. If they gave you both gauges, decent quality parts, and a bit of information on what to look for (beyond this red zone, green zone balogney) and how to recognize when you are in trouble, I would feel a little better about them. However, with what he's given, he's virtually guaranteed to screw up his system at best or hurt himself at worst. Personally, I think it is irresponsible and reckless on the part of ID or whoever is making Wally World stuff this week to put this crap out on the market.

Add the leak seal snot to the mix and it gets even more fun, doesn't it? Where does the high side pressure (that you aren't monitoring) go once you plug up the orifice tube because you didn't understand the consequences of adding it without evacuating the system? To the moon, Alice!!!

I've read this site for several years and contribute where I can. However, it seems to me that over the past season I have seen a lot more people insisting that the pros give them "miracle in a can" solutions and not enough of them willing to follow Chick's advice to do it right and do it once. It's probably human nature to look for quick and dirty answers. I've just never seen it work out very well in MVAC...

We should probably be glad ID isn't pushing DIY nuclear reactor kits...

Stevo30

iceman2555 on Tue November 18, 2003 9:53 PM User is offlineView users profile

Understand the work that comes from DIYer and their screwups. Helped me pay Snap On on many occasions. My reference to the 609 and 134a is that it looks as if the EPA may finally require this to purchase 134a. Since we as techs have had to recover this refrigerant for awhile and yet....DIYers have been able to purchase and vent this for years. At least this makes the field a bit more level. I have also heard rumors of the possibility that small cans may be going away. Keep in mind this may be simply a rumor.
I understand Anon....everyone wants the quick fix/freeze me repair. As you know..there are very few quick fixes on the modern system. It is approaching the point where it is a totally replaceable system. Shoot I can remember doing a A6 replacement out the door for less than 200.00.
The change in the systems....refrigerant....compressor designs...etc are making it more and more difficult for the DIYer to accomplish the repair and be successful. One of the downfalls of this is that I also see techs (?) with the same idea and pretty much the same approach to the repair. This scares the living '*@' out of me. When a tech puts more than two compressors on the same vehicle and still has problems (failures) it is very scary. Often the failures are the same as what happened to the ordinal compressor. The failure to use the proper equipment to completely diagnosis the system....failure to understand how the system works....and failure to adequately diagnosis the problem....and yet...sends compressors back as being a 'warranty'. It is no wonder that most DIYers are having such problems. Seems as if many repairs are quickly running away from the DIYers. Is this good or bad? For us....good...for the market itself...I am not sure. I do know that the compressor return rate is much higher in the DIYer segment of the market. If this change results in lower parts prices....then I am all for it. However, I feel this is just a pipe dream. The cost of parts replacement from the whse...jobber...installer has to reflect the cost of these extremely high return rates.
Question for other techs. Do your compressor suppliers limit the number of compressors that can be returned for warranty/per job. Or do they give you a blanket return policy.....as many as it takes to get the vehicle out of the shop. Are any suppliers in your areas requiring the purchase of condensers/hose assemblies in addition to orifice/accumulator/drier for warranty. Just curious.
This forum is great.....have read some very interesting...some very funny.....and some very sad things here. I am sure that many are helped thru these postings.......and I am sure...some have been re directed to shops that were able to satisfy the requirement s for the customer.


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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

calairematt on Thu November 20, 2003 2:09 PM User is offlineView users profile

I remember when i was 18 and i first got into fixing my own vehicle. the first thing i did was buy a chilton's or a mitchell manual at the local auto parts store to at least get a basic idea of what the process required as far time, tools and labor. Has anyone seen that as far as a/c goes.... nope ... it says that a system should only be serviced by a trained professional and maybe they will identify some of the parts... maybe there is a reason. Such as its dangerous and requires more than just mechanical knowledge.

On the other hand being winter and all if some one comes in and wants to know about stop leak or a "used" compressor i wont sell that stuff but i will point them in the direction with a paragraph of caution and a farewell of "see you soon". Some people just have to learn a couple hundred dollars at a time. That even went for my own mother. She bought the best price and falsest promise and i ended up doing it and even with my prices ended up costing more than she originally paid... but she never had a problem after.

I think the public has to learn that A/C is an amenity and (in most cases) not a requirement for the vehicle to do its main purpose (transport our lazy butts). It's a luxury and thats why "luxury cars" cost more.

Man i hate winter.. so slow. time to sell stop leak and punch holes in condenser.. just kidding... about the condensers at least... hahaha

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Matt

Independent shop parts and airconditioning specialist.

aussiedevil on Fri November 21, 2003 8:31 AM User is offlineView users profile

ICEMAN,
All of our suppliers provide a 1 year warranty on compressors new or reman . The big but however is that unless the system is flushed , new TX and Drier fitted then there is no warranty (ABSOLUTE) no exceptions . I find that that work is being lost to other shops who do not perform these mandatory tasks . BUYER BEWARE . In the last 15 years of doing a/c the only warranty claims to be made on new compressors were all noise related . Can not recall a failure . This is because if it isn't done right and you have a problem then YOU HAVE THE PROBLEM .

Have just received notification off a $1 a Kg environmental levy to be introduced on our ozone friendly replacement R134a . Shouldn't come into affect until middle of 2005 . Apparently the australian government have just been informed that 134 could possibly be a green house gas .

So this 609 thing a ma jig , would allow me to purchase R134a and not even have to be able to recover gas . Where can i get 1 . Can i sell all of my recovery equipment ( Have several units going cheap).HA.

Suggestion could this forum facilitate a for sale section where your DIY'ERS could sell of any equipment or parts that they no longer require . RECYCLE and make the world a happier place .

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M.J.W

NickD on Fri November 21, 2003 9:45 AM User is offline

The RIAA is not going against Kazaa for copyright infringement, but rather against the kid users where it would cost their parents just as much to hire an attorney as to pay the fine, go against the individual.

The IRS as I was told by an ex IRS agent was not to audit large corporations as they have too many sharp tax attorneys that would end in an expensive court battle, and the IRS would probably lose anyway, go against the individual, it's cheaper and easier and the average individual cannot afford a good tax attorney.

The EPA will not go against the major auto companies for producing well know leaking AC vehicles, the lobby is too strong, and even though this is the major cause of refrigerant leaks into our precious environment, go against either the user or the small shop and hit them with very stiff fines, it's easier.

The EPA's fines against major polluting industries makes it far more attractive to these industries to pay that tiny fine rather than paying millions for repairs. The EPA even set up a program where industries can buy the right to pollute.

The introduction of alternative refrigerants has caused a major refrigerant contamination problem, the 609 states this refrigerant must be properly disposed of. I don't want to touch this subject with a ten foot pole, but from all indications, the majority of these contaminated refrigerants are released in the air anyway. But that is not our problem, our problem is to properly recover and pay someone to take these contaminated refrigerants off of our hands or face severe fines.

Taxation always is the answer, now I have to pay a buck to get rid of a two buck oil filter. Makes a guy wonder if these agencies are really helping the environment or playing a major con game on the individual users.

Ted2 on Fri November 21, 2003 12:39 PM User is offlineView users profile

On the subject of DIY screwups, I am constantly amazed and appalled at some of the things people report here that they have done. Since I am only a DIY myself, I can only imagine how you professionals must view some of those reports.

I can't even imagine why they do some of the things they do before bothering to seek information. Screw it up and ask questions later. As some of you know, I came to this forum to learn something about working on A/C. What you may not know is that I read virtually every post here for about a year before ever touching one of my systems. I used that time to accumulate the equipment I could tell I was going to need. It gave me time to wait for some bargains to appear, so when I decided that I had learned enough to proceed, I had everything I needed. I have now applied what I learned here to three vehicles and, so far, have not created any problems for myself.

As an aside...early on I posted a question in that "other" forum. The response I got was that since I was a DIY, whatever I did wasn't going to work anyway. Of course, that only strengthened my determination. And then Tim opened this forum where I could get real answers to my questions.

The guys who act first and seek information later have only themselves to blame for the problems they create. They could come here first, get an education and then be in a position to really save themselves some money. The contributers to this forum are great teachers. My thanks to each and every one of you.

Ted

Stevo30 on Fri November 21, 2003 5:52 PM User is offline

I had to laugh when I read your comments, Ted! I learned MVAC exactly as you did and have turned it into a pretty nice little sideline business. In reading these boards, however, I think that we are becoming the minority. It seems much "easier" to just post a question and try out the latest "miracle in a can" option rather than study the old posts and figure things out on your own.

I sometimes think that people misunderstand the goal of these boards. They are here to assist vehicle owners and interested DIYers in repairing their MVAC systems; hopefully the right way. They aren't the marketing or sales channels for the alternative refrigerant developers. Or sandboxes for hackers and the lazy. When the pro says that to do a successful repair or conversion you have to follow a carefully established procedure, he's saying that because he knows that that is the easiest and most dependable way to get you back to reliable cold air. The less experience you have, the more important it is that you precisely follow those procedures. Skip steps or do sloppy work and you are absolutely going to be doing it again. Argue with him, and you'll be on your own. After all, when you screw it up, who's the loser; you or the pro? I'm amazed at how often people seem to need to learn this lesson...

I finally stopped looking at the other board much since it seemed that many of the posters were guys looking to argue about what alternative was better than 134a and/or whining that all garages and mechanics are trying to rip off the average guy by telling him how much it costs to do the job right. It also became a free for all with personal attacks way too often for my taste. The choices seem pretty logical to me. You either pay the pro or do the job yourself. The proper steps really don't change regardless of who does the work.

I've really gained an awful lot of knowledge and insight into MVAC systems by reading these boards. I heartily agree with your praise to the experts that post here and Tim for putting up with all of us. They don't have to be spending their precious time answering questions time after time. But, I'm glad that they all do. I have to think that their reward is the occasional poster who says thanks and follows up with a report on their success. It's what keeps me coming back.

I still like Chick's motto best: "Do it right and do it once"

I also like the one: "If I understand how it works, I just might be able to fix it"

ATTA BOY to all you pros out there who contribute so much!!!


Stevo30

TRB on Fri November 21, 2003 7:13 PM User is offlineView users profile

Thanks for the nice comments. Personally I have enjoyed helping others and have made some new friends along the way! Dealing with many of the members in the background I can tell you we sure cover the range from OEM Pro to the weekend DIY person! All of which add to the success and friendliness of this site. All of us at ACkits.com thank all of you for making this site the finest auto a/c site on the web! Well at least I think it is!!!!

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

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